[signalpuke]

Damn.

Now I'm curious as all hell.


Don't mean to get off topic here, but.....The whole.....ITB's in a plenum thing is throwing me off. Anyone speculate how well that mani would work on an FI setup? Or is that just an N/A thing strictly?

Not sure I understand the reasoning behind this design.

Those are not ITBs. It is a single throttle plate manifold with conical trumpets inside, like the OEM.

These are air boxes for ITBs
http://k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=76939
http://k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=43478

The closer the throttle plates are to the ports the more immediate the throttle response. This is the idea behind BMW and Nissan using these ITB/turbo systems on their gran touring cars.

What I am looking for with the dual plenum is even distribution of the air to each port. Throttle response will be the same as if I were to use an RBC or the Kinsler manifold.

 

[CJM]

I dont think the kinsler/gopower/blueprint manifold would be too great on NA. boost, looks like where it would work better.

Rich, according to Corky Bell (renown turbo guru), the plenum volume of an ideal intake manifold should be 50-70% of the engines total displacement, and a key factor is obviously the plenum to runner intersection, with bell mouth shaped inlets per runner that are 65-75% of the diameter opening the plenum.

:up:

 

[Crimson_Marquis]

Those are not ITBs. It is a single throttle plate manifold with conical trumpets inside, like the OEM.

These are air boxes for ITBs
http://k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=76939
http://k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=43478

The closer the throttle plates are to the ports the more immediate the throttle response. This is the idea behind BMW and Nissan using these ITB/turbo systems on their gran touring cars.

What I am looking for with the dual plenum is even distribution of the air to each port. Throttle response will be the same as if I were to use an RBC or the Kinsler manifold.

Ahhh.

Yeah, you're right - trumpets vs. ITB's. Thanks for the links, Sig.

If you're wanting dual plenum....then two separate manifolds with one (x1 ea) TB? Or one mani, one TB that splits 1-2-4? How are you envisioning an optimal IM for your engine/yourself? It seems as if you've done alot of research on the subject, considered all the ones listed and still not content with what you're seeing. Just an observation.

 

[signalpuke]

Ahhh.

Yeah, you're right - trumpets vs. ITB's. Thanks for the links, Sig.

If you're wanting dual plenum....then two separate manifolds with one (x1 ea) TB? Or one mani, one TB that splits 1-2-4? How are you envisioning an optimal IM for your engine/yourself? It seems as if you've done alot of research on the subject, considered all the ones listed and still not content with what you're seeing. Just an observation.

Just one throttle body. The first plenum feeds the second, which feeds the runners.
The idea is to use the two plenums as a flow filter, to meter the air to each cylinder equally. On a turbo application where pressure can over come the less than ideal flow properties, I think that it will show some benefits over just using the RBC or RRC.
The dyno plots in the MR2 thread I linked back up this idea, as the difference between the two plots is the second plenum. An added benefit of this design is the ability to mount the throttle body facing the opposite direction, improving intercooler efficiency and piping design.

 

[rbsjnh]

Just one throttle body. The first plenum feeds the second, which feeds the runners.
The idea is to use the two plenums as a flow filter, to meter the air to each cylinder equally. On a turbo application where pressure can over come the less than ideal flow properties, I think that it will show some benefits over just using the RBC or RRC.
The dyno plots in the MR2 thread I linked back up this idea, as the difference between the two plots is the second plenum. An added benefit of this design is the ability to mount the throttle body facing the opposite direction, improving intercooler efficiency and piping design.

it would be interesting to take a built motor, turbo, manifold, same air-to-water intercooler and try the differences between an rbc, rrc, dual plenum, s/c, feeder turbo and lay out how changing the intake will chane the output of the turbo, whp, torque.

I need a dyno, its not a want.

 

[P2WR]

had a quick question on a possible design...

since i have no space restrictions on my application,

would a vertical long runner manifold
that goes UP instead of DOWN
(think B20 or if i flipped the TSX one upwards)
with the secondary plenum on top
make any huge differences?

because after equalizing at the top,
it would still have to travel down the
vertical runners to the head...

i need to engineer as much torque
as possible into my build...

thanks in advance guys!!

 

[signalpuke]

Something like this?

If space is not a constraint, then I would make the runners as straight to the port as possible. They should be an extension of the port, the air should not know that there is a transition. Like so:

See this thread, it has some conceptual and CFD analysis of the dual plenum manifold:
http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php?showtopic=61549

 

[signalpuke]

The thread I linked at the bottom of my last post, great info in it! :up:

Some more eye candy:

HKS built 4G63

This is similar to what my idea was for the K-series. I would have the conical plenum on the underside of the main plenum.

 

[CJM]

good stuff aaron:up:

 

[P2WR]

more similar to the second one you posted with the CF horns.

instead of coming out horizontally,
im going vertically...

similar to the B20 int manifold on the left...

WITHOUT the bottom transitions
turning towards the ports.
its coming straight down into the port
and the secondary plenum will be on top
of the primary plenum at the top of the manifold.

i need some kind of formula/equation
to figure out the length and sizes of the runners though
and also if it would matter to start at a bigger diameter
then transition to a smaller diameter at the port for
velocity...

 

[signalpuke]

2011 Ford Fiesta WRC

2010 Ford Focus WRC

Skoda Octavia WRC

Skoda Fabia WRC

 

[signalpuke]

Jenvey Zetec turbo plenum

 

[signalpuke]

 

[CJM]

why do I have the feeling you are going to have a car with a dual plane plenum and turbo aaron?

 

[signalpuke]

why do I have the feeling you are going to have a car with a dual plane plenum and turbo aaron?

Want one?

 

[Figment-The-Dragon]

Are you going to have a car with a dual plane plenum and turbo aaron?

Want one?

I would love to see this...:wow:

 

[CJM]

Want one?

I do actually.

 

[eyecarvether4iam]

This is one of the most enlightening threads i have come upon. And the hybridz link is just a whole other story. Good stuff, have the wheels in my head turning since i have quite a bit a space above the motor to play with angle of attack and such on the runners/ secondary plenum.

 

[P2WR]

uhhmmm aaron and colin....

don't forget that sharing is caring!!
LoL!!

 

[ProOnThaSnow]

After reading this thread, I am really interested in doing this. It'd be awesome to have a one off manifold, that would actually perform.

I stumbled across this, which would take some guess work out of the initial plenum:

http://www.jasperintegration.com/distribution-plenum.html

And we have the ability to produce velocity stacks:

The rest of the manifold built for a 2.3 Ford turbo engine:

All we'd have to figure is ideal size for the secondary plenum and form it (I have a couple Ideas), and figure ideal runner length.

I'm not the number/engineer guy, but I have a friend who'd love to accept this challenge and design it in solidworks.

Hmmmm, This would be pretty cool to build.