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Can someone explain to me the values of the VTC on K-pro????

23K views 21 replies 9 participants last post by  jon v  
#1 ·
Ok, i am not asking what VTC is, what im asking for is some informations as to what the valvues used in K-pro for the cam angle represent.

Now i know that the VTC is adjustable from 0 to 50, and this represents crankshaft degrees, and that should mean a total of 25 degrees of actual cam adjustability right???

But where would "0" cam degree be??? is it like 25, with anything before 25 being retarted cam timing, and anything after 25 being advanced cam timing???

Can anyone explain to me how this works????
 
#2 ·
From what I understand, it is 50 degrees total of camshaft adjustability. I think the K20A "zero" in K-pro is actually -25. For a K24, it would be total 25, and that it is not +/- 12.5, but 0 advance to 25 advance, or something like that.

Someone here must know...tell me I'm wrong!:)
 
#3 ·
the intake cam at rest / at idle is at 0° advance, so there is no cam angle retard. as the cam angle is advanced the overlap is increased such that the intake charge enters the cylinder earlier.
 
#5 ·
rsxmachine said:
the intake cam at rest / at idle is at 0° advance, so there is no cam angle retard. as the cam angle is advanced the overlap is increased such that the intake charge enters the cylinder earlier.
So for example, if it is 50 up to 4000 rpms, and is 20 from 8000-9000 rpms, what does that number represent? Cam centerline? Valve closing or opening? Only reason i don't think it would be one of those 2 is because i've never seen 50 degrees of cam adjusting, even though it's a K-series and has the ability to adjust the intake cam timing electronically as opposed to keeping it set with adjustable cam gears like you do with a B-series.

The intake valve opens BTDC, and closes ABDC. Anyone have the valve timing events for the K20a2 cams? At 1mm lift?
 
#6 ·
Cam phase is a tricky topic. For a fixed cam gear, the "degree" of a cam relates a reference point on the cam to a reference point on the crankshaft. With VTC, things get sticky. A chosen reference point on the cam is matched to a reference point on the cam gear which is matched to a reference point on the crank. The VTC system then allows you to vary the correlation of these reference points on the fly.

So what does "zero degrees" really mean? Not much for a fixed cam gear, and it means even less for a VTC system. The zero degrees that everyone knows is based on the manufacturer chosen location of the dowel pin or keyway on the cam. It means that when installed according to mfg specs, the dowel pin will point up when the number one cylinder is at TDC. That's it. Nothing else. It tells you nothing specific about where the valve begins to open, where peak lift occurs, or where the valve closes. Now keep in mind that when building fixed cam gear engines, companies like Honda would set the dowel pin such that the cam is oriented to the crank in a way that makes peak power. An aftermarket cam would need to be oriented to the crank in a different way in order to make peak power, thus the concept of degreeing cams enters.

It's ALL relative. That "zero" means nothing in an absolute sense. There is an optimum relative orientation between the cam and crank. That is, you want to match a cam reference point with a particular crankshaft degree on the combustion stroke for the intake and on the exhaust stroke for the exhaust. The industry standard cam reference point is the centerline, or the point where peak lift occurs. What does the centerline have to do with the zero degree marking? Nothing. You can specify the centerline as being "XXX degrees after zero" assuming that the dowel pin is zero. So the goal is to match the lobe centerline with a specific crank angle.

Now because the k20 motors have VTC on the intake, when the cam is engineered, they have to determine how to set the dowel pin such that the VTC is useful. Typically they will set the VTC such that the lobe centerline can be varied about the optimum crank angle. If the VTC system allows 50degrees of phase adjustment relative to the crank, they will set the dowel pin such that the lobe centerline can be varied +/- 25 crank degrees about the optimum crank angle. Honda decided to use a 0 to 50 scale instead of a -25 to 25 deg scale. This also means that Honda most likely used 30deg as the reference point for where the lobe centerline would correlate with the optimum crank angle given a stock setup. This is confirmed by the fact that peak power almost always occurs at 30deg with stock cams. The reasoning for this is presumably because Honda wanted to minimize the interpolation that would result from using a number like 25 degrees. Assuming that 30 deg is where the lobe centerline occurs, that means when k-pro shows zero deg advance, the lobe centerline occurs 30 degrees to late. When k-pro shows 30 degrees advance, the lobe centerline is optimized. I hate to anaolgize this notion, but people seem to have a better time understanding that 30deg advance orients the cam and crank in the way that zero deg would orient the cam and crank on a fixed cam gear motor. That is, on a stock k20a2, 30deg advance is analagous to 0deg, 0deg is analgous to -30deg, and 50deg is analgous to +20deg. So the range of adjustment is -30deg to +20deg.

It's much simpler to gain an understanding of how changing cam phase affects the correlation between lobe centerline and crank angle using a fixed cam gear.

Here is an example.

Assume that the lobe centerline is at 110 deg from the dowel pin on the cam. Assume also that you want the lobe centerline to correlate to 170deg from TDC.

When you model the movement of the cam and crank, you will see that after 170 degrees of crank rotation, the cam will have rotated only 85 degrees (cam moves at 1/2 crank speed). This means that the lobe centerline will occur 25deg (cam) or 12.5deg (crank) after the "optimum" point. That means you want to adjust the cam phase such that the centerline is shifted 25deg advance. So then you model cam/crank movement again. You find that at TDC, the dowel pin is shifted forward 25deg. When the crank has moved 170deg, the cam will still have moved 85deg. However, because of the 25deg advance imparted by the cam gear, the cam will be oriented such that the point on the lobe 85+25deg from dowel pin, or 110deg from dowel pin will be correlated to the crank angle of 170deg. Thus the cam has been degreed

So how do you know at what crank angle the lobe centerline should occur? This orientation is determined via experience for most people. Some companies, like IPS, have done us the favor of engineering their cams such that they can be installed using the stock markings to produce optimized correlation between the lobe centerline and crank angle for common builds. That is to say, if they engineered their cams for k20a2 motors with an AEM intake, PRC manifold, Comptech race header with no exhaust, then customers with similar setups will find that the lobe centerline is already optimized relative to crank angle. I suspect that most companies select a certain type of engine build, and then engineer the cam centerline around that. So if the company engineered the cam for a high compression, all out engine, the degree correlation will be quite different when used on a stock compression motor. From what my contacts tell me, the Skunk2 cams are engineered for such builds. If used on a motor without a lot of compression, you stand to gain a decent amount of HP from degreeing the exhaust because it is not adjustable via VTC. So cams from different companies will require different degree settings for the intake and exhaust.

So where does VTC fit in? Well VTC allows the intake cam centerline to be optimized for a range of situations, not just peak power. With a fixed cam gear, you can only optimize the centerline for one situation, usually peak power. You can make the exact same peak power with a fixed cam gear as you can with VTC. VTC just allows you to have a broader powerband. That's it.
 
#9 ·
the diagram in the Helms (ch. 11) may be of some help in understanding what the VTC values mean. it shows how there is always some overlap between intake & exhaust, but as VTC is advanced, the intake valves open earlier (before TDC) to increase EGR to help optimize power and at the same time improve emissions & fuel efficiency. Chunky is right in that it's relative to the cam design and much of the map falls into the 25-30° range, particularly under cruise conditions. but mechanically speaking there is no retard in the VTC mechanism in that it is not able to move backward from its resting point, since it requires oil pressure to advance from 0.
 
#11 ·
you can think of it that way, that is what Chunky means by "relative". but I mean that the VTC actuator cannot move backward from it's zero point. at idle, or if oil pressure is low it is at 0 not at 25.

at "zero" VTC the diagram shows the intake valve opening slightly after TDC.
 
#14 ·
my guess is that at 25-30° VTC the intake cam is already advanced some relative to TDC. where exactly it goes into retard in the traditional sense depends on the cam design but it looks like with the stockers there is always a small amount of overlap.
 
#15 ·
92hatchattack said:
Right, but aopn startup, it will move to its programed spot...
upon startup the VTC stays at 0° or very close to it, until you give it some throttle and it gets further up the map... try putting 30° in the cells around your idle point, it won't run right.
 
#18 ·
can we compare many of the pre-programed K-pro calibration cam angle tables to this Jeff Evans tuned bin that belongs to #2???

(bin found in the ecu section, in the bin file post)

Why in the K-pro calibrations (lets just talk high cam) are there values up into the 40's and 50's, and Jeff decides to smooth all this out to an even 30, all the way to the top where he retards slightly on the high end..... How does this make more power, and why are the stock tables set the way they are???
 
#19 ·
there may not have been a significant difference in torque between the cam angles on that particular car, and/or it may depend on how much tuning time went into it. I think he may have started from scratch on the cam angles rather than one of the preset kals. I have a tuned kal done by him for a Toda + full boltons setup, and the hi cam steps down from 50-45-40-30.
 
#22 ·
So the Stock VTC intake gear is plenty capable of adjusting for max optimization, but the exhaust cam would need an adjustable cam gear (of the fixed type), which could also help if the angles didn't happen to be optimized from the beginning correct?