[allmotor98]

@allmotor98 good results, the header collector is 3"?

Close. it's actually a 2 1/2" donut flange at the header welded to 2 1/2" -3" reducer then 3" pipe back.

 

[kaleb]

k24a stock block
K20z1 stock head
OBX ITBs
3 inch exhaust
skunk2 headers
RDX injectors

 

[ymt507]

-k20 block
-f22 crank
-InlinPro rods
-Stock Prb head
-Prayoonto Cams
-Cp 87mm 13.1:1 CR
-Custom header
-3" exhaust
-Ported Rrc
-3" injen cai

270whp
304Hp

i tuned this
k20 block
k20 crank
stage 2 cams
head&rbc ported
74 tb sk2
265whp/176 tq
3" intake

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[94TegLS@MSC]

Hi all, been reading up on just about everything I can in this thread and other threads about the power potential of the K20A but numbers seem to vary(shocker). Planning on doing a K20A type R engine swap in my Integra and would like to be able to hit 240whp. Here's my plan below...

Intake:

-Hybrid racing Kswap intake 3"
-RRC intake manifold ported to 70mm
-Hybrid racing 70mm throttle body
-Hondata intake manifold gasket

Exhaust:

-Thinking a ktuned option here possibly the big tube header with 3" collector, too much for stock K20A?
-Custom 3" exhaust with Ktuned 3" turn down... possibly another resonator

fuel:

-Possibly ID1050X injectors (overkill I know but I get them free)
-Walbro 255

That's pretty much the plan and would like to see 240whp on a dynapack dyno on Arizona 91 gas obviously tuning with Kpro. What's everyone's thoughts? doable or would it require more work? I could switch to E85 if need be to get to the power goal but would prefer to stay on pump gas for obvious reasons

 

[all<dc5]

Hi all, been reading up on just about everything I can in this thread and other threads about the power potential of the K20A but numbers seem to vary(shocker). Planning on doing a K20A type R engine swap in my Integra and would like to be able to hit 240whp. Here's my plan below...

Intake:

-Hybrid racing Kswap intake 3"
-RRC intake manifold ported to 70mm
-Hybrid racing 70mm throttle body
-Hondata intake manifold gasket

Exhaust:

-Thinking a ktuned option here possibly the big tube header with 3" collector, too much for stock K20A?
-Custom 3" exhaust with Ktuned 3" turn down... possibly another resonator

fuel:

-Possibly ID1050X injectors (overkill I know but I get them free)
-Walbro 255

That's pretty much the plan and would like to see 240whp on a dynapack dyno on Arizona 91 gas obviously tuning with Kpro. What's everyone's thoughts? doable or would it require more work? I could switch to E85 if need be to get to the power goal but would prefer to stay on pump gas for obvious reasons

3" collector is too big for a stock K20

 

[K20actr.J]

i tuned this
k20 block
k20 crank
stage 2 cams
head&rbc ported
74 tb sk2
265whp/176 tq
3" intake

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

you need work on tune low to mindrage the dip :dude:





k20 86x86 stock block my older older older setup
toda head gasket 11.4 cr
stage 2 cams
70mm exhaust
ported rbc
dc sport header

275hp

 

[94TegLS@MSC]

3" collector is too big for a stock K20

How do you know for sure? Intake and exhaust piping is ideal at 3" but the collector being 3" is too big? I feel an entire 3" exhaust system would flow the best for any K series. I emailed Ktuned about they're big tube header and they said it will make the most power for even a stock K20A. If you have some proof or dyno data to back up the claim of 3" being to big I'm all ears.

 

[all<dc5]

How do you know for sure? Intake and exhaust piping is ideal at 3" but the collector being 3" is too big? I feel an entire 3" exhaust system would flow the best for any K series. I emailed Ktuned about they're big tube header and they said it will make the most power for even a stock K20A. If you have some proof or dyno data to back up the claim of 3" being to big I'm all ears.

If it's going to be a track car that never sees below 6k RPM then maybe it's a not a bad decision. I have no dyno data myself but this topic has been studied for decades and you will be shifting the powerband up. If you want to reduce the already little bottom end torque these engines make stock then be my guest.

 

[94TegLS@MSC]

How do you know for sure? Intake and exhaust piping is ideal at 3" but the collector being 3" is too big? I feel an entire 3" exhaust system would flow the best for any K series. I emailed Ktuned about they're big tube header and they said it will make the most power for even a stock K20A. If you have some proof or dyno data to back up the claim of 3" being to big I'm all ears.

If it's going to be a track car that never sees below 6k RPM then maybe it's a not a bad decision. I have no dyno data myself but this topic has been studied for decades and you will be shifting the powerband up. If you want to reduce the already little bottom end torque these engines make stock then be my guest.

Moving the power band up top? You mean where these engines make all the power anyways? Lol the car will never see below 6.5k on track and I couldn't care less about low end torque on a track only car. It will get driven maybe once every few months on the street so low end isn't important

 

[drmo]

I think that you misinterpret the word "collector". The manifold exit will perform good if the exit is 3", but the collector that size will not. There was a lot discussed on this topic and the problem is the exhaust gas speed which is too low at the end of the pipes. Look at the manifolds on the market. I don't see any that has this big collector, exit yes, but the collector is smaller, usually around 2.38" (60mm ID), and that is on the most "race" oriented manifolds on the market.

Look at the picture I attached. The exit on that manifold is 70mm, but the collector size is 55mm. The manifold on the picture is not for a K series, but it is for a 2.0l engine with similar output.

 

[DonMizzi]

Hi, here's my dyno

Motor: K20A2
Header: PLM Tri-Y with collector exit 2.75" OD (70mm)
Cams: Drag Cartel Drop-In + double spring supertech 80psi
Intake: ram intake 3" + Skunk 2 Pro 70mm + 70mm RBC
Exhaust: all 2.75" OD (70mm), no cat
Tranny: 4-5-6 JDM + Wavetrack LSD
Misc Mods: RDX 410cc - VTC Max 40° - 98 octane fuel
Power: 208 whp / 162 tq (220 Nm)

Rule Power: 245cv
Dissipated Power: 38cv
VTC@8000 28°
VTC@8500 22°

How does it look?
I saw that some cars do this power without cams
Even in the wheel power, the various dynos may have differences due to the calibration?

 

[LotusElise]

How does it look?

Just calulated from the dyno, your engine VE is:

• BMEP 12.7 bar@8.5 krpm with 1.0 VE
• BMEP 14.1 bar@5.5 krpm with 1.1 VE

Quantity-wise it is just guessing, as long as we don't know what a stock engine is put down there on the table.

Quantity-wise it peaks early in torque (like stock cam with 50° VTC) but also has a late peak power point...something maybe the PLM header is creating. Need more info on the dyno results with stock engines.

Markus

 

[LotusElise]

Dissipated Power: 38cv...VTC@8000 28°...VTC@8500 22°

The drivetrain efficiency is at 0.855, which is a bit low, but depends on the dyno calibration, as dissipated power calculation is extremly sensitive to that. So no real validation of that possible.

VTC of 40° down to 28° at 8 krpm and 22° at 8.5 krpm is typical. As VTC isn't much sensitive (no 5 hp more or less by retarting VTC by e.g. 4°) on the right corner, these are also no untypical values.

Ignition timing matters. What was it at WOT from 6 krpm to redline and which fuel did you use? Which muffler was mounted? What was the lambda in that engine speed range which was tuned for?

Markus

 

[sax jonz]

K20z1 stock internals except for DC2.2 Cams port n polish. Custom CAI intake to ROTREX 38-91 stock pulley, in to HR 74mm TB, Hondata 4bar, Skunk 2 mani, ID 1000 out back PLM to Thermal 3 inch that's about it.

Previous build was all stock internals, with typical boltons, Injen CAI to RBC, Hondata gasket, PLM to Thermal 3" 217 on same dyno. If I find the sheet I'll post it up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DonMizzi]

Ignition timing matters. What was it at WOT from 6 krpm to redline and which fuel did you use? Which muffler was mounted? What was the lambda in that engine speed range which was tuned for?

Markus

Thank you for your answer

Custom straight muffler 70mm (2.75")
I use 98 octane fuel

Tuner said to me that calibrated with rich lambda 12.2-12.5.
Now I have fouled the sensor, so I cannot be more accurate.

Ignition is the same for all VTC from 20 to 50, the same of the previous calibration before cams installed (and before header, exhaust and throttle body incrased)

6000 - 28.75
6500 - 27.75
7000 - 27.25
7500 - 27.75
8000 - 28.25
8500 - 28.35

I made an avarage between column 9 and 10

 

[DonMizzi]

Here is a previous dyno, almost stock, with stock intake and airbox.
Only Ktuned entry level header and no cat, all exhaust 60 mm

Graph shows motor hp, dissipated is 13% (on different dyno)
207 hp, torque in kgf

 

[LotusElise]

...98 octane fuel...lambda 12.2-12.5...

Thanks for your data. You likely mean 98 RON (Super Plus fuel), which is about 92-93 octane, don't you? If so the Lambda value ranges from 0,82 to 0,85, which is pretty rich for a stock K20 combustion chamber setup.

BTW, I recommend to talk about Lambda and not about AFR, as the last need the fuel quality to finish the calculation as every fuel have a different stoichiometric AFR. Just as an example, E85 has around 9.86 st. AFR and Methanol has 6.47 stoichiometric AFR. An AFR 12.2-12.5 would be for Methanol way to lean! Just forget AFR talking, lambda is the ruling number we all tune for.

Do you have plans to measure it on street with a proper wideband?

Ignition is the same for all VTC from 20 to 50, the same of the previous calibration before cams installed...6000 - 28.75...8500 - 28.35

For a stock combustion chamber, PLM header and CAT delete and 2.75" CAT-back not unusual if IAT is below 20°, but I really would made my mind if it is all over WOT the same, which doesn't make sense.

What values did you the engine lay down for K.Control while the last WOT run. It is very likely you can't run these values during summer...the knock controller will do huge retards...if you use Hondata KPro.

Markus

 

[LotusElise]

...previous dyno, almost stock...Only Ktuned entry level header and no cat, all exhaust 60 mm...Graph shows motor hp, dissipated is 13% (on different dyno)...207 hp, torque in kgf

To sum it up:

• A CAT-less engine with a short header manifold gives 207 hp and 27 hp drivetrain losses (= 0.850)
• The actual engine setup gives 245 hp and 38 hp drivetrain losses (= 0,875
• Above wasn't tuned on exact the same dyno but it was the exact same drivetrain (wheels, brakes, gearbox and clutch), correct?

I would appreciate your answers or corrections.

Markus

 

[DonMizzi]

Hi, yes lambda 0.85-0.82 with 98 RON fuel Super Plus
I bought today new wideband sensor, so I'll test exact values on street.

Drivetrain of the previous dyno is different, no LSD, no 4-5-6 JDM and no light flywheel

K.control was 46% last run, I wonder how it is calculated
I think that manage of knock retard is disabled

For ignition table, maybe I badly explained myself.
I reported the ignition advance for columns 9-10 (WOT)
Other columns are different for the same VTC.
But the ignition high table is the same for all VTC

However you can check calibration here:
calibration

Every opinion and advice is useful, thank you, so I learn a bit

 

[LotusElise]

Hi, yes lambda 0.85-0.82 with 98 RON fuel Super Plus

Thanks for verification .

I bought today new wideband sensor, so I'll test exact values on street.

:up:

Drivetrain of the previous dyno is different, no LSD, no 4-5-6 JDM and no light flywheel

On a dyno roller there should be now difference between left and right rotation speed, which means the LSD won't increase the losses of the Drivetrain. Tuning mostly happens in 3rd gear, as 4th gear is weaker and creates pretty high roller speeds at redline. I have my doubts the actual drivetrain causes 2.5 %-points bigger losses. I guess it comes in the bigger amount from the dyno calibration. Just my nose guessing .

K.control was 46% last run, I wonder how it is calculated

Tuning should happen at K.Control values of near to 0 %. If K.Control is bigger then 0 % the Knock sensing system senses a higher noise level, which is in between knock threshold value (= related engine speed and load) and zero noise. The higher the knock sensor noise (0-5 V), the higher the K.Control value.

Calculation of K.Control:

• 0 % of K.Control relates to ignition timing for mean best torque (MBT) with an 100 octane fuel or better
• 100 % of K.Control relates to an ignition timing for a MBT with an 90 octane fuel.
• K.Control = 46 % corresponds to a fuel quality of = 100 octane - (100-90) octane * 0,46 = 95.5 octane (ECU assumes it not to take it wordly!)

Depending on the IAT the tuner should keep K.Control as low as possible, which he can control by ignition timing, which lowers torque by retarding the 50 % mass fuel burned point, because the stock Honda knock controller reduces ignition timing hugely (up to -12 °ca, see retard tables for ignition timing) just for safety issues. But in summer time, you want to have the best power available, so winter tuning is always a risk when using stock knock control mechanism. 46 % is too high for my taste if it was tuned in Winter...:twocents:

I reported the ignition advance for columns 9-10 (WOT)

I got it, I did talk only about WOT.

However you can check calibration here:
calibration

Thanks. Will look into it later.

Markus