[A Mack]

Seems like you a baller man. You have an 09 TSX and an 08 Si :wow: I can't wait to get an 06 TSX 6sp of course and put the 09 TSX tranny in it with lsd.

 

[mucter]

Yeah, I wish the TSX had an LSD, it definitely can't do low speed corners like the Si. But the short gears in the TSX's 6MT are nice. Its very torquey.

 

[renn]

for the money you'd spend just buy a bike, it'll rev all day long on pump gas and you won't have a car that drives like shit when you're not on the gas.

 

[mucter]

for the money you'd spend just buy a bike, it'll rev all day long on pump gas and you won't have a car that drives like shit when you're not on the gas.

hahaha lol. I like having 4 wheels and a metal body around me when I'm taking corners at twice the posted speed sign...

 

[jon v]

You need

Custom crank
Custom rods
Custom pistons
Custom Header
IPS K10 cams or better
Quality Intake manifold (built to suit)
Quality head work and valvetrain
S2000 oil pump or dry sump setup
High quality clutch and flywheel combo

enough money to build 2 incase it doesn't last long...

Probly want a K24 block with a really small crank and some real long rods... You should try and get in touch with one of the builders Nikos mentioned. This kind of motor isnt built with off the shelf parts, every part needs to compliment the rest of the build. There for it is best to have someone who knows what they are doing spec out all the parts and assemble the motor to there specs and tollerences...

Your part may just be installing it when it arrives.

 

[mucter]

Your part may just be installing it when it arrives.

Well, that's no fun at all.

 

[jon v]

Well, that's no fun at all.

I'm sure you could pay someone about the same amount to provide you all the parts and have the block prepped and you can take a wack at assembling it all yourself.

Just dont expect to be buying a bunch of off the shelf parts and randomly put togther some combo and expect it to make power in the 10k range...

The motor you are talking about is a race engine, even if it is 12.5:1 and tuned on pump gas making power that high is going to take a well designed race engine... It's going to be loud, unreliable, and a head ache to maintain. For the same power as you could have from a bigger stroke lower revving OEM style motor that would cost you half as much... So if being different and revving to 10k is worth it have at it...

I would love to see a build like this, but i wouldnt want to daily drive it

 

[A Mack]

jon v is on point man. That motor would have to be custom. You can't just go pick this up and pick that up. Something like that would be best left to the pros man unless you are one. No harm ment by that man.

I have a suggestion man, look at the Toda Stroker Kit. No it's not a 10k rpm package, but the specs of the kit is close to the Civic Mugen RR setup. It should go to 9k if, I'm not mistaken. It could be reliable.

Here's a clip of it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlAST5cgw4s

Toda products: http://k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=34175&highlight=Toda+Stroker+Kit

 

[blinx197]

You need

Custom crank
Custom rods
Custom pistons
Custom Header
IPS K10 cams or better
Quality Intake manifold (built to suit)
Quality head work and valvetrain
S2000 oil pump or dry sump setup
High quality clutch and flywheel combo

Hmm,... feel free to tell me Im wrong,.. but since the f20s stock redline is 9k i think itd be alright to assume aftermarket shelf pistons for it would be able to rev slightly higher than OEM ones, so could a k24 or slightly overbored k20 block and f20 shelf pistons accomplish this? obviously with custom rods tho,.. just throwin ideas out there!

 

[signalpuke]

Hmm,... feel free to tell me Im wrong,.. but since the f20s stock redline is 9k i think itd be alright to assume aftermarket shelf pistons for it would be able to rev slightly higher than OEM ones, so could a k24 or slightly overbored k20 block and f20 shelf pistons accomplish this? obviously with custom rods tho,.. just throwin ideas out there!

Nope. There is a lot more to the F20C motor that dictates that 9000 redline than just the pistons.
The crank throw (stroke) over RPM dictates the pistons speed.
Piston speed is limited by material strength and aerodynamics.

Think of it this way; the F20C is a 87mm bore motor. The K24 is a 87mm bore motor. The general piston size is pretty similar. What else is different in the motors?
Crank throw.
Rod length.
Rod journal width.
Wrist pin diameter.
Piston skirt.
Ring package.
Overall rotating assembly balance.

 

[jon v]

Hmm,... feel free to tell me Im wrong,.. but since the f20s stock redline is 9k i think itd be alright to assume aftermarket shelf pistons for it would be able to rev slightly higher than OEM ones, so could a k24 or slightly overbored k20 block and f20 shelf pistons accomplish this? obviously with custom rods tho,.. just throwin ideas out there!

Just because you can rev something to 9k or higher doesn't mean it is going to make power... You need a short stroke and long rod setup to make power in the real high RPM range. So you are talking about a modified or custom crank, and custom rods. if you are going to do that why buy a shelf piston? Someone who knows about building engines, moreso than even I do, would get a custom piston with a raised wrist pin, custom ring package, custom skirt package, etc...

If you try and cheap out on a build like this or even just cut corners you will end up with a setup that may be able to rev upwards of 10k, but it probly wont make power that high and probly wont last long either...

There is a reason not many people have built motors like this... Although it would be cool and can be done for the right amount of money, you can get the same results for less money with a bigger stroke lower RPM motor with different gearing...



Don't get me wrong I like the idea of a 2L K that can make power to 10k and still have decent low RPM power because of the VTC and displacement. And if I had 10 grand or more to blow on just a motor build I would probly build one, but only if I knew I had the money to do it right the first time... There are so many things that come in to play when you are talking about building a motor capable of sustaining these kinds of RPM's, everything needs to be taken in to account because nothing in these motors were designed to push the envelope that is being discussed...

 

[JDMEG6]

A 2.2L w/ s2k pump should do it. It won't make that much more power up top but here's a 2.2 doing 9,500 and aren't a bunch of ppl n/a ppl running 9.000rpm with stock pumps.

Don't know how valid this dyno is but seems like it's alot of peak for what it is.

 

[mucter]

Nope. There is a lot more to the F20C motor that dictates that 9000 redline than just the pistons.
The crank throw (stroke) over RPM dictates the pistons speed.
Piston speed is limited by material strength and aerodynamics.

Think of it this way; the F20C is a 87mm bore motor. The K24 is a 87mm bore motor. The general piston size is pretty similar. What else is different in the motors?
Crank throw.
Rod length.
Rod journal width.
Wrist pin diameter.
Piston skirt.
Ring package.
Overall rotating assembly balance.

You left out the OEM fiber reinforced sleeves I used to have an S2000 so I do know a thing or two about them... lol

jon v is on point man. That motor would have to be custom. You can't just go pick this up and pick that up. Something like that would be best left to the pros man unless you are one. No harm ment by that man.

I have a suggestion man, look at the Toda Stroker Kit. No it's not a 10k rpm package, but the specs of the kit is close to the Civic Mugen RR setup. It should go to 9k if, I'm not mistaken. It could be reliable.

Here's a clip of it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlAST5cgw4s

Toda products: http://k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=34175&highlight=Toda+Stroker+Kit

No harm, no foul. I get it. As much as I hate to admit it. I guess you guys are convincing me that just grabbing a k24a4 and building the bottom end and then swapping over all the parts from my k20z3 (head,oil pump, etc) that I need is the right way to go....

I guess then the question is, with a stock k24a4 crank, good rods and pistons (which ones, idk yet), a BC or BP valve train/stage 2 cams, how high can I rev safely?

A 2.2L w/ s2k pump should do it. It won't make that much more power up top but here's a 2.2 doing 9,500 and aren't a bunch of ppl n/a ppl running 9.000rpm with stock pumps.

Don't know how valid this dyno is but seems like it's alot of peak for what it is.

This is interesting. I think that the biggest thing about this build thats impacting the power is the use of ITB's.... which I'm not interested in using. Also, he is revving to 9400 or whatever, but he's not making good power up there. Peak is at 8500 and after that, the torque looks chaotic. Can't be healthy.

 

[nikos]

Use your k20z3 crank 86mm in a k24a block with custom rods and pistons..

that will do 10K with no problems. Reliability will depend on who will design the rods and pistons

 

[mucter]

Use your k20z3 crank 86mm in a k24a block with custom rods and pistons..

that will do 10K with no problems. Reliability will depend on who will design the rods and pistons

Who would you vouch for? And why would the k20z3 crank work better in the k24a than it does in its own block?

 

[nikos]

I use IPS pistons and rods in most of my motors but the best comes with a price and patience. Rods at cunningham take 16 weeks to be made.

The geometry of the motor is changing with using a longer rod. Research short rod vs long rod on the internet to see the philisophies..

The 99mm crank in the k24a block is good and make power but as you rev up, it becomes more difficult to make power...

That is why people have been destroking the k24a blocks to 96mm, 95mm, 93, 92, 90, 88, 86, and even 82mm , 79mm...

Look at motorcycle specs... small stroke, big bore, high revs

Rod stroke ratio....

The reason why I suggest 86mm is because you already have it.. This motor would not break any HP records, but it would rev to 10K while making power with the right head..

This coudl really become a good turbo motor but for all motor, discplacement is best.

I did a 82mm k24 but had to sell it.. the new owner, has not run it yet..

if you see the spoon motor on your tube that revs to 10K+ is a s2000 cranked k20 or k24 block.

Since you want to put it together on your own and learn, start by maybe messing around with the k20z3 block...

Another point..

On the recent 90.7mm stroke k24a that I did for my friend in greece using IPS partrs, they measured that it would take 1.25 kgs of force to force the crank to do a full rotation which according to previous tests was very very lower comparted to other motors. The low force is a result of the bearing clearances, piston skirt design and piston weight, rod angle/pin position along with pin diameter etc...

So it should be simple.. It is harder to turn a big stroke than a smaller stroke... So at high rpm, it would be easier to turn a 80mm stroke than a bigger one.

Something else to think about

Both the enzo ferrari and the 2010 BMW M5 have the same bore and stroke

92.00 mm × 75.20 mm stroke

Coincidence>? I dont think so

 

[mucter]

I understand the relationship of an oversquare block vs. an undersquare block and how one is better for revving and the other is better for low-end grunt. That's why the S2000 revs so well, the pistons are like wide pancakes and the stroke is really short.

I know that the K20 is a square block since the bore and stroke are the same. So yeah its not going to rev as well as a f20c.

So basically what you're telling me is that I need to get a k24 block and by putting the k20 crank in it, I'll be creating a slightly oversquare engine due to the increased bore on the k24.

But what I don't get.... is how that'll be more reliable at 10k rpm than just leaving my crank in the k20z3 and putting stronger rods/pistons into it. Just because its oversquare, doesn't change the piston speeds or side loading of the cylinder walls. The pistons will be traveling at the same speed in either block.

Does running a longer rod due to the difference in deck height make the difference? I'd like to understand why that would make it safer in this instance. Because regardless of the rod length, the pistons will still travel at the same speed based on the stroke. It must be the rod angle that makes the difference, because I guess with a longer rod, the angle will be more upright, thus putting less stress on the rods. Is that correct?

Sorry my engine dynamics are a bit rusty.... its been a while since I've built one. That's the whole point of this thread. I miss it.

 

[nikos]

you are right 10K is not as drastic.. I might be talking about 11k+ revs with these combinations

As the cylinder fires, and the piston moves down say, .060", the short rod engine moves the crank MORE crank degrees because of the short rod, and the long rod moves barely at all.

As a result, the long rod pistons "dwells" at TDC longer, and allows the pressure to build up. Obviously at high rpm this is good for maintaining power since the short rod engine would have the piston halfway down its stroke in no time (no push)! Conversely, the short rod engine at low rpms and high loads will not ping and the engine has "leverage" to spin the crank, where the long rod engine "stalls".

Since the piston "timing" is different on the two respective engines they have different characteristics regarding camshaft selection and timing requirements. Also, the shorter engine will "pull and push" the charge thru the ports harder, running out of "breath" at a lower rpm while the long rod engine keeps pulling.

 

[nikos]

this motor had a 2:1 RS ratio using dseries bearings

k24a block
89mm IPS pistons 12.1:1 compression
IPS rods
82.5 mm crank
Sleeves by Inlinepro

 

[mucter]

Yup, that all makes sense. So if I went this way, I have to get custom rods and pistons, there just simply isn't anything in the market that'll swap in to get this done?

I'm not trying to sound impatient. Just asking more questions since you seem to have lots of answers (and I'd probably buy this k24 block from you).