[doug2507]

Chassis is a work in progress right now but a few photos of where it's at...

Exhaust tunnel finished along with seat rails welded in....

Same again but also with additional bracing on the tunnel. This was put in to compensate for the original transverse brace that ran between the floor stiffening legs. ..

Rear half of the cage cut out and replaced, mounting now adjacent to the strut tops (onto rear chassis legs) rather than the arches with additional cross brace between the legs, tied back into the main hoop & harness bar fitted.

Rear half of the spare wheel well cut out, other half has been left in. Didn't see any point removing what's available up to the wheel centre line, leaving it in for retaining some form of strengthening of the rear crossmember out weighs any weight saving IMO and saves putting in extra tube to RF the crossmember (There's also a big hole in there now for the exhaust to pass through).

Inner quarter panel walls have been cut out up the the wheel C/L but left an edge so structure isn't compromised...

Front slam panel removed completely and tubing put it. Top section is bolted so easily removed for taking the engine out. This only needs to support the bumper / bonnet and radiator.

Bottom tubing is welded to the legs, again to support body work / radiator etc but it'll also support the splitter.

Rear pins for boot & bumper...

PCI front ARB tubing put it. Not as easy as you would think as the OEM holes that were used for alignment / guide don't actually match up either side of the chassis leg. Inner hole had to be adjusted to get the tube parallel with the BHD (straight!) before being welded in...

Dummy engine & gearbox offered up for fitting. Despite sitting 25mm lower than stock, there's still clearance issues. Leg was scalloped / plated to accommodate. We did consider additional strengthening of the leg but decided it wasn't necessary...

Leg work done & mount with compliance bush fabricated. Alignment is nearly spot on, there's a 1deg lift on the box end probably as a result of welding so that'll be taken care of when the engine / box assembly comes back out.

Rear mount will get tied into the ARB tubing / BHD as the turnbuckle arm is too long for mounting onto the subframe rear crossmember. This means that the subframe and engine / box will be completely independent of each other, something i need to have a think about and evaluate...

Steering column's been done, cut out the tube between the front legs, re-positioned and stripped the OEM assembly down to the bare minimum. Decided it was far easier to do this and extend the column using a spacer (BG) than try and put a straight column in. Pedal box is also in and just need to double check everything feels like it's where it should be (bum on seat / steering wheel / pedals) before calling it job done.

Good progress and the to-do list is getting smaller. Jobs still outstanding...finish the fuel tank / mount it, mount the air compressor / receiver, mount the oil tank, box all of this in, trim off all the excess studs / brackets on the front BHD and close all the holes that have been left from removing all of the OEM stuff (servo, harness, heater etc etc).

New wheels are on order (17x9 square, ET35) so hopefully they arrive soon along with new front arms / hubs. Need the wheels on to see what's required on the rear arches for full compression (+15mm from hubs plus a 9" rim (ET35) before the shell gets paint and the front arms need to go on for welding the mounting points of the front ARB. Also need to check clearance between the ARB arms / strut arms ARB tube pokes out 15mm from the chassis leg. Maybe should have done that before welding it in but it is what it is and we'll just need to deal with it if there's problems!

 

[MoHo]

I've been reading this. I come up with even top shelf parts need to be f*cked with. It's still very enjoyable.

This is also why I decided to make a thread relating to the build, there's always potential to pick up new ideas when you open up discussion to others. You'd be surprised how often someone else has a different idea about something and that idea proves to be valuable. I take that approach with my work, even though I know how it'll be done myself, I always offer up the thought process / solution to others to see if we can make improvement.

This speaks volumes to me. I am the poster child of make something out of nothing. That would be hard to argue.

Most of that guys can even handle properly a 60 hp car on the track, as they don't know to drive when power is low, thence power is the excuse to cover it. The brave guys know what is good, driver skill development is done there when you challenge yourself.

I have mentioned this and why I'm a fan of Gotovato. He's fortunant to have you in his corner.

I've got the the engine built which is a good few months away due to what's going on with it.

What is going on with it? Are you trying to salvage the $piston engine?

 

[doug2507]

What is going on with it? Are you trying to salvage the $piston engine?

R&D for head / valve train is in progress and that needs finalised before moving on with other aspects. Think of it as a top to bottom sequence of events before a longblock is produced.

Head requires some development / testing before spec can be finalised. Off the back of that, valve train can be specified (not a 100% off the shelf solution due to rpm) which then allows piston dome to be designed to accommodate valve motion and chamber shape along with skirt / pin / ring package then rods and crank. The head / valve train is the foundation and everything else should fall into place reasonably quickly afterwards. Production of those parts will potentially be the most time consuming depending on crank spec.

We should be moving onto piston / rod / crank early next year I would think. There's a lot of time and effort going into the engine which means progress might appear to be slow but the hours required behind the scenes for every system component are numerable. It's one thing I can't update regularly on here for reasons above and many aspects of the design (or the combination of those) are proprietary.

What I can say is it'll be 86*86, 2000cc, likely stock sleeves with CSS (TBD), VTEC, pump fuel (FIA102), dry sump, DBW ITB with plenum. Expected peak HP is past 9500Krpm which in itself means very careful attention to individual component design for endurance / longevity. Seasonal running hrs are very low but it's been specified to take into account initial dyno / setup hrs and consideration given to engine pre heat. It'll be getting periodic inspection during season and strip down between seasons. Both of these are certainly required early on for verification of wear during / end of season due to the nature of the build. This may relax as time goes by, suck it and see!

And no, the 4PR engine won't be used as the basis for this one, apart from having 4 pistons and 2000cc, they won't share many similarities apart from the dry sump system. The 4PR head and cams are going into a non Honda chassis as a track / Nurburgring car I believe (the owner is on the forum) and the block is going into a rather crazy K20 turbo build in a small Peugeot chassis using Ford WRC GrpA running gear! All parts have gone to good projects, long rods and pistons still here though.

Back to chassis, paid the car a visit yesterday evening to sign off on seat / wheel / pedal position. All feels pretty good so the green light to finish welding was given. I'll update in a couple of weeks once a few other jobs on the to do list are ticked off. 😎

 

[MoHo]

So I was saying were not that far apart in our approach. I too put my money in the head as it was a bottom end failure and that head will "carry over". I was just needing a reality check. Thank You, Now I know I'm doing it right.

 

[MoHo]

which means progress might appear to be slow but the hours required behind the scenes for every system component are numerable.

Not really Doug, I and I know others are watching this and waiting to see what you can share. Just like Lotus Elise you are not reading from a script or putting together "tried and true". That's for me to do, It's all can afford. You and many others have inspired me though to use innovation and research and get what I need done. You Have enough carbon fiber to be damn near bullet proof. I just got my first piece (coil cover) I am amazed by it! Then you had to go to the Ti bolts....I to must know? In the whole grand scheme of things they wont make me go anywhere faster, but I'm the type of person that "I Know" is often good enough for me. Thanx for sharing what you can and my bad for breaking in with an engine question not realizing you were a page ahead of me!

 

[doug2507]

If you want to follow the British Hillclimb Championship next year, subscribe to Hillclimb.TV on YouTube. Loads of good footage from previous seasons on there as well. 😎

 

[gotovato]

Nice promotional video for British Hillclimb, feel free to subscribe, helps the guys out that do all the live streams!

Doug! Looks like the video is down?

Just curious do you have any footage of yourself doing some hill climbing? I find is so cool that it’s so common across the pond. We don’t have any hill climbs around here

 

[doug2507]

Odd, they must have taken it down. Edited post.

 

[Conrad]

Interesting watching it develop Doug... Keep up the good work.

 

[doug2507]

Not much happened over the festive period, bit of well deserved feet up tome for everyone involved!

This coming week will be finishing off the fuel tank and getting it mounted / boxed in, mounting the oil tank / boxing it in, same with air compressor / receiver.

Front arms / hubs should be done by end of week and ready for shipping which in turn will allow the ARB pick up points to be welded onto the arms the following week.

New wheels arrived the other day and I've swapped the pirellis over from the set of Braids...

Even though the pirellis are SS I'll need to get a set of tyre blankets and take them out for a couple of laps on a test day to break them in. Avon A15 compound which is the norm isn't available anymore due to the factory shutting down. I think there is a plan in the works for someone else to start making them again but for now this is what we'll be using. Still got a new set of 210 avons but a 245 is optimal for grip vs drag according the the man in the know so will see if we can get these working. Also gives the option to run the Avons on the rear and these up front.

I'll swing in by the car this coming week and get the rear knuckles off to swap the EP3 hubs for the DC5 set then we can take the springs off and check how much the rear arches need trimed for clearance on full compression. Rear is circa 27mm wider per corner than before (without spacers) so definitely need to cut and reweld the arches for clearance. After spending some time looking into arch extensions, time needed for fabrication etc, decided to get a set of JAS Motorsport knock offs from Pesch Motorsport for all four corners. Cost something around €300 for the set so I won't loose any sleep hitting the armco and the weight difference will be minimal. Bumpers I'll still make from carbon though as there's a good 15kg+ to be saved between the pair of them. Can't do the front until intake and cooling is spec'd so the rear which is the easier one to do anyway will be the guinea pig!

Looking about now for someone to paint the shell. Once I've sorted that I'll get a poly windscreen on order to swap out the heated glass screen and make a start on the wiring side of life.

Will also have a chat with the engine designer to see if the exhaust system can be spec'd sooner rather than later. Smart play is to get it fabricated now whilst the mock up longblock is in so any tweeks to chassis for routing can be done prior to paint. Still debating whether to use an 18awg SS tube or inconel, temp isn't an issue and not sure how thin a wall you can use with inconel vs SS for dropping weight further. Any input appreciated! Full system will be sent off to Zircotec for ceramic coating / Zircoflex once done.

Slightly off topic, with the light at the end of the tunnel being a little far off right now, I've been very kindly offered a double drive of this for 2024 season. Will need to check dates for when I'm onshore this year and maybe fit a bumpstop under the go pedal but looks like some well needed seat time is on the cards...

 

[Lotus]

Inconel would be for header only anyhow. Then do the rest of the exhaust system in Titanium if you want to save weight. If there are no noise restriction or cat requirements in the class, you could do a fender or hood exit system and save meters of pipes & heaps of weight.

 

[doug2507]

Unfortunately there's a requirement for both. Can't remember off the top of my head but it's something like 96dB@1.5m and any car after '99(?) requires a CAT. We've actually found that there may be benefit to running a CAT so maybe not the pony killer everyone expects! I'd rather use inconel or SS vs Ti due to fatigue tbh as mounting won't have much compliance. Not sure if you can push inconel to a 20awg+ wall though and 18awg SS is already approaching max weight drop relative to cost I think. Front end weight reduction is priority so might just go for inconel manifold and SS the rest.

 

[Lotus]

WRC mounts the cat as the exhaust tip. They glow nicely.

 

[doug2507]

Indeed. This one will be after manifold as there's potential benefit to placement with shape considered.

 

[Lotus]

be aware that cat converters of any kind have a very limited track life time unless you run an ECU that offers cat protection modes and you have thermocouple probes installed to actually probe and map these functions. I have fried them all, OEM, 200CPSI HJS, 100CPSI HJS and 100CPSI 1600°C FIA approved cat.
The air pumped through the cat on the overrun at high rpm in the brake zones after saturating them with oxidizable stuff leads to sudden temperature spikes that destroys them.

 

[gotovato]

be aware that cat converters of any kind have a very limited track life time unless you run an ECU that offers cat protection modes and you have thermocouple probes installed to actually probe and map these functions. I have fried them all, OEM, 200CPSI HJS, 100CPSI HJS and 100CPSI 1600°C FIA approved cat.
The air pumped through the cat on the overrun at high rpm in the brake zones after saturating them with oxidizable stuff leads to sudden temperature spikes that destroys them.

Some good info. I am considering running a cat although I do not need one for classing I do need one for street legal purposes. I ran without for 2023 but was considering for 2024.

My build is not as extreme as Doug’s here so maybe not as much of an issue? I guess we’ll see

 

[doug2507]

be aware that cat converters of any kind have a very limited track life time unless you run an ECU that offers cat protection modes and you have thermocouple probes installed to actually probe and map these functions. I have fried them all, OEM, 200CPSI HJS, 100CPSI HJS and 100CPSI 1600°C FIA approved cat.
The air pumped through the cat on the overrun at high rpm in the brake zones after saturating them with oxidizable stuff leads to sudden temperature spikes that destroys them.

Indeed. Being classed as a sacraficial part, as with you it'll be an HJS PE FIA CAT.

Not overly bothered about it loosing function as I don't think I've ever seen a car get tested in the paddock for a CAT doing its job as intended, it's usually just a visual at most to see if there's one there. The only way I would find out if it's shot is if they tested it in the paddock as there's no requirement for an MOT in my class, I can keep a spare in the box if that day ever comes. 😉

Whether that loss of function has any impact on the engine I don't know, I'll leave that part to someone who knows more than me!

 

[Lotus]

non, unless it is a ceramic cat that crumbles and blocks exhaust or a cheap metallic cat telescoping and then also blocking the path.
The WRC solution is nice as it allows visual inspection and no blockage in case of failure. It will just spit out the crumbles.

 

[MoHo]

be aware that cat converters of any kind have a very limited track life time unless you run an ECU that offers cat protection modes and you have thermocouple probes installed to actually probe and map these functions. I have fried them all, OEM, 200CPSI HJS, 100CPSI HJS and 100CPSI 1600°C FIA approved cat.

Why not just knock the stuffing out of it or is that to easy?

 

[Lotus]

he has to run one for the racing class he is in as do HRC rally cars. If you are inspected and found without a catalytic converter fitted, you get disqualified.