[doug2507]

Exactly. It's one thing for a cell to fail and be unaware for it and another thing to totally disregard what's written in the rule book. It would be like "hey, let's make the pistons 1mm bigger, who will know." Play by the rules and you can't go wrong, some "interpretation" can be made but that's about it.

I do know they've checked CAT's before now I think about it. Someone mentioned they did this a while back and put an IR gun on the road going class CAT's to check for temp. If the cells shot then it'll be a low reading.

 

[LotusElise]

Why not just knock the stuffing out of it or is that to easy?

It smells awfully, especially if tuned too rich 🤭. Serious, like @Lotus said it, in all European car racing series you find FIA CAT requirement as a minimum. These are no closed loop controlled lambda 3-way-concepts, but at least a part of the emissions get calmed down. It's more then a fig leave, you smell the difference immediately.

 

[gotovato]

Very interesting. This is something nobody cares about here. For racing, cat or no cat. It’s not written into any rules for any of our series. for my series, you will take a penalty for not running a cat but it’s so minor that it’s basically overlooked by everyone.

As for tests, we don’t have any. It would be a visual inspection. If they see it there, good enough!

Interesting how rules and regulations are all different.

As for playing by the rules I have learned it is worth it. Specially if you are loud and constantly grabbing attention. You’re gonna get pinched. People love to rat out cheaters around here.

 

[doug2507]

Speaking of closed loop, at what point on an NA engine does individual cylinder trim become worthwhile or is it only for the FI guys?

A while back I had the AEM Wideband controller, ASP header was fitted with bungs then it turned out the header didn't fit the car. After some discussion with my mapper at the time is was decided to do without, IIRC the setup which involved populating a few tables was somewhat off putting.

Move on a few years, changed to Motec, there's no headache for setup from what i can tell (LSU-D x4 over CAN), and what will be more likely (comparatively) a less forgiving engine for being in sync - or more so one that will require quite frequent inspection to ensure all is well, I'm thinking it might not be such a daft idea, even more so after seeing the variation between cylinders on the previous engine during tear down...

 

[Lotus]

it can be very helpful for mapping, especially if you have individual cylinder trim maps to cover the entire range of flow regimes.
For operation in closed loop, you won’t need 4 probes.

 

[doug2507]

So how do you accurately trim and monitor per cylinder without individual lambda sensors?

 

[Lotus]

you map with 4, but once set-up these deviations won’t change. So for closed loop corrections in later operation you only need 1.

 

[MoHo]

If you are inspected and found without a catalytic converter fitted, you get disqualified.

Ok, but he said it was a visual. So I don't see why adding probs and all that is gonna help? People have "faked cats" since there inception. It seems like they are not to concerned weather it's operational just that it's there?

 

[MoHo]

Let us run with this, not to serious as even L.E showed up!

It smells awfully, especially if tuned too rich 🤭.

The only two things on a car that smell like rotten eggs is a bad cat or a bad battery. I've never known of a properly functioning cat OR one that has been relieved of it's inners to produce a smell although it will through your fuel curve off.

As for playing by the rules I have learned it is worth it. Specially if you are loud and constantly grabbing attention. You’re gonna get pinched. People love to rat out cheaters around here.

Tom, we've talked about this. In public and in private even and I'm about out of ideas. I too am not alway's well liked and I don't know why? You have some personality defects that run pretty deep. It will take years for you to undue it or at this age you can just embrace it and continue on this path. You know what I say?

I'm thinking it might not be such a daft idea,

I'm glad we can agree I thought it was pretty slick.

you won’t need 4 probes.

Here you go wanting to porkypine it. I have considered a temp probe gauge but don't think I'm at the point where it is money well spent. I can see where it would benefit Doug though!

EDIT Misspelled L.E

 

[Lotus]

for competitive racing, every HP found anywhere helps winning, hence the 4 lambda probe tuning. 4 EGTs can work as a substitute to a degree.
At GE I had colleagues who worked on coatings for gears. They did some numbers and found they would gain about 2HP to the wheels on a race car and told the team it probably ain’t worth it.
The team owner replied that for an extra 2 HP he would sell his granny, wife and kids.

 

[MoHo]

The team owner replied that for an extra 2 HP he would sell his granny, wife and kids.

Well said, and I am just trying to get a handle on this. I'm a simple man that just recently started a carbon fiber Ti habit. Somebody put the words in my head? I'm just trying to point out what the common dude might do and what may be the right way to go about this. There's not only performance issues but moral issues on a couple levels. I didn't say what I would do?

 

[doug2507]

you map with 4, but once set-up these deviations won’t change. So for closed loop corrections in later operation you only need 1.

Ok, so that would mean 5 in total then, one on each primary then the usual one on the collector. Don't see the point of switching to single after map as that's additional cost for another sensor, additional wiring and you've got 4x empty boss in the primaries that need filled unless you want to reduce lifespan of those sensors for no reason. Surely for closed loop you can still retain the four on the primaries (this would run from averaging all four) and retain data logging per cylinder?

 

[Lotus]

nobody runs with 4. It is only used for mapping.
Motec and others offer special multi-probe wideband controllers with analog or CAN output for that purpose.
The just screw in m18x1.5 caps once you are done.
The collector one is used for closed loop fueling during normal operation.
In race engine development or with stringent emissions requirements, you would then optimize the manifolds and ports to correct these deviations in the affected load and rpm ranges.

 

[doug2507]

Front arms and hubs have now been fabricated with a big thanks to George and Theo at SRT Motorsport for carrying out the work. I like promoting companies who do excellent work and these guys certainly fall into that bracket!

First heard about these guys when I saw Theos solid steering rack bushes advertised. Managed to get a set from him, got talking, found out he worked for SRT and had a look through the work they do. Not only do they do some rather impressive cylinder head work but they're big hillclimb fans as well and are involved with a few projects in Europe, mainly Peugeot focused. I spotted these arms on the photo page of previous work they'd done and got chatting to Theo who runs his own tricked out EP3 with these arms / hubs and shares the same passion for motorsport as I have.

End result was having a chat with George (SRT owner) to spec arms / hubs for my use and 2 months later here they are. Basically a reinforced EP3 hub to grp. A spec and a nice lightweight 25cromo arm with substantial room for adjustability and revised roll centre height. All that's left for me to do is weld the mounting brackets on for the PCI front Arb links then get them off for coating. I'll also be able to measure for driveshafts before they go for coating, another job on the slowly shrinking list of things to do!

 

[gotovato]

Wowza. Some very nice looking stuff there Doug. That’s awesome

 

[doug2507]

Yeah, pretty happy with these tbh. As nice as the PCI arms were, these are about 25% lighter, more optimum RC correction and quite a difference in track width. Also allows me to run an EP3 knuckle / hub which again is lighter than DC5R assembly and no need to get new brackets made for the calipers. Just waiting for the Pesch (JAS copy) arches to show up which are the only viable option for covering the wheels with the additional track!

Quality of fabrication is superb, as is the support / customer service from SRT.

Lots of measuing ahead for suspension setup but looking forward to it, all interesting stuff...

I swapped the EP3 rear hubs for DC5 last week and right enough, nice increase on width for the rear. Initially didn't think there was much difference looking at the top of the wheel then realised just how much neg camber was on it due to the hub pushing the wheel out! 😅 Think I'll run stock studs up front and extended on the rear as I need to leave some wiggle room on the rear to play with spacers. I'll need to send a rear caliper / disc down to my brake guy to make new mounts for the calipers though.

Still a bit of work on the chassis to go though. Patiently waiting for the arch extensions as that's holding up cutting the rear arches for clearance, exhaust system is 99% confirmed but need to have a chat with Zircotec about ceramic coating / zircoflex properties before that's finalised and need to get the fuel tank finished / installed & closed in along with the air compressor / receiver. Once it's back with me I'll do a dry install of pipework for fluids up to the bhd then strip and start prepping for paint. Hopefully by then the cold weather starts dissappearing!

 

[Oshawott]

R&D for head / valve train is in progress and that needs finalised before moving on with other aspects. Think of it as a top to bottom sequence of events before a longblock is produced.

Head requires some development / testing before spec can be finalised. Off the back of that, valve train can be specified (not a 100% off the shelf solution due to rpm) which then allows piston dome to be designed to accommodate valve motion and chamber shape along with skirt / pin / ring package then rods and crank. The head / valve train is the foundation and everything else should fall into place reasonably quickly afterwards. Production of those parts will potentially be the most time consuming depending on crank spec.

We should be moving onto piston / rod / crank early next year I would think. There's a lot of time and effort going into the engine which means progress might appear to be slow but the hours required behind the scenes for every system component are numerable. It's one thing I can't update regularly on here for reasons above and many aspects of the design (or the combination of those) are proprietary.

What I can say is it'll be 86*86, 2000cc, likely stock sleeves with CSS (TBD), VTEC, pump fuel (FIA102), dry sump, DBW ITB with plenum. Expected peak HP is past 9500Krpm which in itself means very careful attention to individual component design for endurance / longevity. Seasonal running hrs are very low but it's been specified to take into account initial dyno / setup hrs and consideration given to engine pre heat. It'll be getting periodic inspection during season and strip down between seasons. Both of these are certainly required early on for verification of wear during / end of season due to the nature of the build. This may relax as time goes by, suck it and see!

And no, the 4PR engine won't be used as the basis for this one, apart from having 4 pistons and 2000cc, they won't share many similarities apart from the dry sump system. The 4PR head and cams are going into a non Honda chassis as a track / Nurburgring car I believe (the owner is on the forum) and the block is going into a rather crazy K20 turbo build in a small Peugeot chassis using Ford WRC GrpA running gear! All parts have gone to good projects, long rods and pistons still here though.

Back to chassis, paid the car a visit yesterday evening to sign off on seat / wheel / pedal position. All feels pretty good so the green light to finish welding was given. I'll update in a couple of weeks once a few other jobs on the to do list are ticked off. 😎

View attachment 115385

Keen to sell the long rods and pistons? 😅

 

[doug2507]

Keen to sell the long rods and pistons? 😅

Yours if you want them and shipping to Oz is no problem. 👌

 

[MoHo]

Yours if you want them

I fiquer this belongs here? Heim ends and the like have been around and used in racing for a very long time. I was not happy with what was on the market. You shop elsewhere but This can be done for the average guy. I only add this because we don't see much of tubular A-arms on most builds around here.

Basically because most of us don't need them. Still The average guy who aspires to be a little better can piece up some of what you have going on. You are making us better. Speaking for myself of course. Keep it rockin' your giving me all kinds of ideas!

 

[doug2507]

Cool. Glad to hear it's giving some inspiration to others!