[chameleon]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

this thread needs some serious feedback!

 

[kezay]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

Katman, I have had the AEM EMS from the beginning and I must say that the EMS is truely a wonderful unit. I will list some of the advantages and disadvantages of both systems.

Hondata Advantages:
1) Cost less than the EMS
2) Slightly more user friendly than the EMS
3) Much Much more base maps available for a wide range of K series engines.

Hondata Disadvantages:
1) Cannot control the Target Lambda while in "Close Loop"
2) According to which K series ECU have been used, "Nitrous control" will not be available. (This is for the PRC ECU because of less ECU pins)
3) The wiring must be perfect for the KPro not to give a CEL
4) While in "Open Loop" the KPro does not make fuel adjustments. (eg. while at WOT if you target Lamda is 13.5 and your actual A/F ratio is 14:1 the KPro will not make any adjustments. This is exactly how the stock ECU works)
5) There have been many member complaining that the "2 Step" in KPro dosn't work well.


AEM EMS Advantages:
1) Makes fuel adjustments to the target A/F ratio while in "Open Loop" (eg. at WOT)
2) All features of the EMS are very in depth and the end user is able to configure any little parameter.
3) Because the EMS is a full standalone unit the wiring does not have to be perfect. (eg. you don't need to wire for the two O2 sensors, I just wired for a wideband and I'm good to go with no CEL's)
4) The end user can control the target lambda while in "Close Loop" at any given load or RPM
5) The EMS has the "Automapping " feature which is very useful when street tuning. This feature have helped me to reduce the cost of tuning my car because I tuned my A/F ratio on the street.
6) The EMS can turn off the Alternator (to reduce the load on the engine) at any preset limit which will show HP gains. Trust me on this!!!!
7) The EMS has a lot of imputs and outputs which can control alot of external gadgets (eg. You can wire a EGT sensor to the EMS and if the exhaust gas temp starts to go up, you can add fuel etc)
8) You can configure the EMS to turn on the CEL if the coolant reaches a preset limit. (This is used to detect if the car is going to overheat even before it actually does overheat.) This saved me a blown headgasket.

EMS Disadvantages:
1) Not much base maps for the K series engines. (Very Very bad)
2) Cost a lot more than KPro
3) The 1030 EMS controls the temp guage and stock A/C switch if using a US spec ECU, however if using a JDM spec ECU the temp guage and stock A/C switch will not work. As a matter of fact the car will not start. (This is a very technical problem that AEM have not been able to address as yet)
4) Anytime trying to start the car, the engine must make two complete revolutions. (This means that the car takes about 1 sec more to start). This could be a good thing because the oil pump has time to prime before the car actually starts.
5) Not so user friendly to use.

Overall I would rate the KPro 6 out of 10, and the EMS 8.5.
I did this write up because I have had both and I personally use the EMS in my car, so I hope AEM or Hondata don't take any of the disadvantages as an attack on their product.

 

[h_turbo]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

Lots of good info on these threads!!! So many questions answered......

 

[H2nr]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

Any K series powered drag racers into the 10s with AEM?

anyone??

PS Kpro also has may more resolution than the EMS does

 

[bahamian-importz]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

anyone??

PS Kpro also has may more resolution than the EMS does

a guy in puerto rico ran 10's with the aem a while ago. and buy december there will be a street k-powered car in the 9's using the aem.

 

[AkumaY]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

a guy in puerto rico ran 10's with the aem a while ago. and buy december there will be a street k-powered car in the 9's using the aem.

tyler "bubbles" hara's car already into the 9's on the aem ems, and its never been slower than 10's with the k motor.

it controls everything currently setup on the car... wideband, antilag, 2step, boost control, nitrous control

 

[Razathorn]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

Some corrections and or clarifications are needed in regards to K-Pro.

Now, the optional advantages of an EMS over the KPRO that people are wondering about are as follows:

- option to shut off the alternator at certain thresholds
- boost control (anti-lag/2-step)
- traction control
- sequential tranny control
- staged injection
- you can setup the EMS to run any injector(s) & any sensor(s) you want for whatever reasons.
- controls VTEC and iVTEC obviously
- custom cam & crank setup
- custom ignition setup (wasted spark, coil on plug, etc)
- individual cylinder trims
- run speed density or ALPHA N (for ITB use)

Traction control -- does ems connect to the abs system somehow?

"controls VTEC and iVTEC obviously" -- I don't understand how that's an advantage over k-pro. They both can control VTC and VTEC (iVTEC).

individual cylinder trims -- kpro has individual cylinder fuel trims.

run speed density of alpha N -- k-pro does that as well. You just pick alpha-n instead of a map sensor and it will work with the tps.

Hondata Disadvantages:
1) Cannot control the Target Lambda while in "Close Loop"
2) According to which K series ECU have been used, "Nitrous control" will not be available. (This is for the PRC ECU because of less ECU pins)
3) The wiring must be perfect for the KPro not to give a CEL
4) While in "Open Loop" the KPro does not make fuel adjustments. (eg. while at WOT if you target Lamda is 13.5 and your actual A/F ratio is 14:1 the KPro will not make any adjustments. This is exactly how the stock ECU works)
5) There have been many member complaining that the "2 Step" in KPro dosn't work well.

1) You can control idle closed loop a/f. Off idle, it isn't adjustable.

3) Almost any wiring problem that would cause a cel you would most certainly need to know or has the ability to be turned off in the calibration. Turning off the emissions section removes almost all of the cels you will get from not having all sensors. There are others you can disable as well -- not many are left that will cause a CEL that aren't fairly important.

4) That's the definition of open loop -- not making adjustments to the map based on what a lambda sensor is telling you. If you are, it's called closed loop. I don't understand. Even if aem has different target lambdas based on load -- it's still closed loop. Perhaps it's above 80kpa or in boost, but if the computer is adjusting things automatically, it's closed loop. Closed loop is for emissions. Allowing the car to adjust on the fly at WOT or boost scares me. It's exactly like the oem ecu, and I consider that 'the right thing' to do in my opinion -- don't trust the potentially faulty sensor when pulling fuel could destroy the motor.

AEM EMS Advantages:
1) Makes fuel adjustments to the target A/F ratio while in "Open Loop" (eg. at WOT)
2) All features of the EMS are very in depth and the end user is able to configure any little parameter.
3) Because the EMS is a full standalone unit the wiring does not have to be perfect. (eg. you don't need to wire for the two O2 sensors, I just wired for a wideband and I'm good to go with no CEL's)
4) The end user can control the target lambda while in "Close Loop" at any given load or RPM
5) The EMS has the "Automapping " feature which is very useful when street tuning. This feature have helped me to reduce the cost of tuning my car because I tuned my A/F ratio on the street.
6) The EMS can turn off the Alternator (to reduce the load on the engine) at any preset limit which will show HP gains. Trust me on this!!!!
7) The EMS has a lot of imputs and outputs which can control alot of external gadgets (eg. You can wire a EGT sensor to the EMS and if the exhaust gas temp starts to go up, you can add fuel etc)
8) You can configure the EMS to turn on the CEL if the coolant reaches a preset limit. (This is used to detect if the car is going to overheat even before it actually does overheat.) This saved me a blown headgasket.

1) That simply violates the definition of "open loop". "Open loop" == no feedback.

3) Same with k-pro. Turn of odbII.

8) Yep, k-pro has that one too. You can bring the fan on at a preset temperature and then define the overheating temperature and what to do when it's reached. You can elect to do any of the following: add a certain percentage of fuel globally, generate and store a DTC, light the CEL/MIL, go into 4000 rpm limp mode, and warn the driver with a breif rev limiter.

Aight... now for the major advantage to k-pro: per cam fuel and ignition tables.

Each 10 degree VTC difference in cam angle has it's own vtec and off vtec (high and low speed) table to tune fuel and ignition. That means there is a 0, 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50 degree high and low speed ignition and fuel tables. You can edit them all at once across all load and rpm indexes (like 10% at 3000 rpm 80kpa) and it will modify all cam angles, or you can edit them individually. Granted you can change VTC with ems, but then you will have to adjust fuel and ignition at that point again as I understand it. The k-pro way ensures that every point in map, rpm, load, or vtc cam angle, has a proper fuel and ignition value in a map so you can go and try 30 degrees instead of 50 degrees in one part of the map without having to re-tune a/f and ignition there. Obviously this depends on the quality of the base map. If it's a hondata one, which comes from the honda ecu itself, it's really dead on for most stock motor applications. Other more highly modified ones may need some more time tuning various parts of the maps, but most common setups already have pretty good base maps already.

I realize that with ems and k-pro, you can run the exact same tune. I just think the 26 table method (12 fuel, 12 ignition, 2 vtc) provides you with a better way to do it and is easier for managing the experience for finding the right fuel, ignition, and cam (valve timing). It just allows you to store and access more map data when doing the tuning.

Wayne

 

[kezay]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

Some corrections and or clarifications are needed in regards to K-Pro.



Traction control -- does ems connect to the abs system somehow?

"controls VTEC and iVTEC obviously" -- I don't understand how that's an advantage over k-pro. They both can control VTC and VTEC (iVTEC).

individual cylinder trims -- kpro has individual cylinder fuel trims.

run speed density of alpha N -- k-pro does that as well. You just pick alpha-n instead of a map sensor and it will work with the tps.



1) You can control idle closed loop a/f. Off idle, it isn't adjustable.

3) Almost any wiring problem that would cause a cel you would most certainly need to know or has the ability to be turned off in the calibration. Turning off the emissions section removes almost all of the cels you will get from not having all sensors. There are others you can disable as well -- not many are left that will cause a CEL that aren't fairly important.

4) That's the definition of open loop -- not making adjustments to the map based on what a lambda sensor is telling you. If you are, it's called closed loop. I don't understand. Even if aem has different target lambdas based on load -- it's still closed loop. Perhaps it's above 80kpa or in boost, but if the computer is adjusting things automatically, it's closed loop. Closed loop is for emissions. Allowing the car to adjust on the fly at WOT or boost scares me. It's exactly like the oem ecu, and I consider that 'the right thing' to do in my opinion -- don't trust the potentially faulty sensor when pulling fuel could destroy the motor.




1) That simply violates the definition of "open loop". "Open loop" == no feedback.

3) Same with k-pro. Turn of odbII.

8) Yep, k-pro has that one too. You can bring the fan on at a preset temperature and then define the overheating temperature and what to do when it's reached. You can elect to do any of the following: add a certain percentage of fuel globally, generate and store a DTC, light the CEL/MIL, go into 4000 rpm limp mode, and warn the driver with a breif rev limiter.

Aight... now for the major advantage to k-pro: per cam fuel and ignition tables.

Each 10 degree VTC difference in cam angle has it's own vtec and off vtec (high and low speed) table to tune fuel and ignition. That means there is a 0, 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50 degree high and low speed ignition and fuel tables. You can edit them all at once across all load and rpm indexes (like 10% at 3000 rpm 80kpa) and it will modify all cam angles, or you can edit them individually. Granted you can change VTC with ems, but then you will have to adjust fuel and ignition at that point again as I understand it. The k-pro way ensures that every point in map, rpm, load, or vtc cam angle, has a proper fuel and ignition value in a map so you can go and try 30 degrees instead of 50 degrees in one part of the map without having to re-tune a/f and ignition there. Obviously this depends on the quality of the base map. If it's a hondata one, which comes from the honda ecu itself, it's really dead on for most stock motor applications. Other more highly modified ones may need some more time tuning various parts of the maps, but most common setups already have pretty good base maps already.

I realize that with ems and k-pro, you can run the exact same tune. I just think the 26 table method (12 fuel, 12 ignition, 2 vtc) provides you with a better way to do it and is easier for managing the experience for finding the right fuel, ignition, and cam (valve timing). It just allows you to store and access more map data when doing the tuning.

Wayne

It is clear to me that you have had no experience with the EMS because you won't be saying things like "Granted you can change VTC with ems" "as you understand it". To help you out its called "Variable Valve Control" in the EMS.
Also when you said "Off idle, it isn't adjustable" that is what I was talking about and you know why I said that??? Because I have experience with both systems.
Next when you said KPro has the "ability to be turned off " (odbII), I was NOT talking about the fact that you can just turn off the feature, What I was refering to is the fact that IT IS ACTUALLY EASIER TO WIRE A VEHICLE FOR THE EMS RATHER THAN KPRO. Do you understand???
Again when you said "Even if aem has different target lambdas", Just to update you AEM dosen't have target Lambdas like KPro, You the end user imputs what you want the target Lambda to be at ANY RPM or Load.
How come you have not made mention of features like Anti-Lag, 2 Step. Oh and BTW how well does "alpha-n instead of a map sensor" work with KPro. Do a search on the forums and then you'll get your answer, just like the 2 step.

But again it comes down to the simple fact that you get what you pay for with the both systems. KPro is a basic system for a cheap price and the EMS is very advanced at a higher price.:up:

 

[Razathorn]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

You said you hoped we didn't take things as a personal attack, but damn -- all I did was offer some clarifications or opinions and you're replying in "YELLING CAPS" at me. Give me a shred of credit for potentially having a good reason to comment on the things I did and give me the benefit of the doubt that I may actually be fairly versed in k-pro and felt those things were worthy of comment without retribution. I never claimed to be an EMS expert, but some of those items just jumped out at me as needing clarification, and that's all I did. I'm not trying to prove people wrong, just offer up corrections and clarifications, as I stated in the very first line of my previous post.

It is clear to me that you have had no experience with the EMS because you won't be saying things like "Granted you can change VTC with ems" "as you understand it". To help you out its called "Variable Valve Control" in the EMS.

Yep, I have no experience with ems. That doesn't change the fact that honda calls it VTC and that's what ems is changing. Why does it matter if I know what it's "called" in ems or not? How does this "help me out" ?

Also when you said "Off idle, it isn't adjustable" that is what I was talking about and you know why I said that??? Because I have experience with both systems.

... and that's why I left the part that off idle wasn't adjustable but idle was. It was a clarification. I did say at the start of the message it was clarifications and corrections. That would be a clarification as k-pro most certianly can control idle target a/f in closed loop -- one of the most important parts of closed loop to be able to adjust with large injectors. You said that k-pro could not change target lambda in closed loop, which is NOT the case at idle. The key word here is clarification.

Next when you said KPro has the "ability to be turned off " (odbII), I was NOT talking about the fact that you can just turn off the feature, What I was refering to is the fact that IT IS ACTUALLY EASIER TO WIRE A VEHICLE FOR THE EMS RATHER THAN KPRO. Do you understand???

Actually I do understand -- but you made it sound like k-pro is a sea of never ending CELS to somone who doesn't understand. If you have an rsx or properly swapped k series, k-pro plugs in and, well, you're done. If you want to say ems is more forgiving, then feel free -- once again, a lot of this is clarification.

Again when you said "Even if aem has different target lambdas", Just to update you AEM dosen't have target Lambdas like KPro, You the end user imputs what you want the target Lambda to be at ANY RPM or Load.

Yes, I in fact, did understand that. Target lambdas in kmanager are for the lambda overlay tool and are NOT used by closed loop in k-pro. Believe it or not, I do understand what I said and what you are saying and was not confused in the least about that.

How come you have not made mention of features like Anti-Lag, 2 Step.

Because hondata says that k-pro doesn't have a anti-lag 2 step setup. It needed no correction. A lot of people have been asking for that feature.

Oh and BTW how well does "alpha-n instead of a map sensor" work with KPro. Do a search on the forums and then you'll get your answer, just like the 2 step.

Most certainly not since one of them is non-existant (the anti-lag part) and the other quite certainly exists (alpha-n support). I can't speak to how well people have got alpha-n working and I have no experience with it, but It most certainly is available in k-pro, regardless. Just because some people haven't had the best of luck, doesn't invalidate it as a feature you listed ems having over k-pro. I could make the same argument about the lack of base maps for ems and say "just go look how much work it took to get this turbo k24 frank with these special cams to work with ems". The feature is there and it will require a lot of tuning to make it work. Oddly enough, kmanager comes with 3 ITB base maps for a k20a2, at least one of which has fuel and ignition curves tuned for an alpha-n setup. If somone just tries to 'turn on' alpha-n, they're in for a world of hurt as the curves will look dramatically different as the same tps is less load as engine speed increases -- this is why there are alpha-n base maps.

EDIT: K-pro most certainly has launch rev limiter that you can set to any rpm you want. Basically, under a certian mph, the rev limiter is at one setting, at above that speed, the rev limiter is another setting. Basically, once the tires are spinning, the launch rev limiter goes away.

But again it comes down to the simple fact that you get what you pay for with the both systems. KPro is a basic system for a cheap price and the EMS is very advanced at a higher price.:up:

Ems most certainly has more features, that's never been called into question -- but I wouldn't call something with all of the features of k-pro basic. Good greif, I have used systems like split second fuel/ignition controllers and other that are *very* basic and make k-pro look like a sea of features and settings only 5% of the people will ever use. Just because EMS is good doesn't mean k-pro is a 'basic cheap system' -- that's absurd.

Wayne

 

[DamonRSX]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

The price difference is very little, really. Cost should not be an issue.

$1600 for AEM, which includes all hardware.

$1100 for K-pro using your stock ECU.

A brand new stock ECU goes for about $500.

Of course, these are retail prices, so I am sure deals can be found. I paid $900 for K-pro and I couldn't be happier with it.

 

[Razathorn]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

The price difference is very little, really. Cost should not be an issue.

$1600 for AEM, which includes all hardware.

$1100 for K-pro using your stock ECU.

A brand new stock ECU goes for about $500.

Of course, these are retail prices, so I am sure deals can be found. I paid $900 for K-pro and I couldn't be happier with it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the $1600 AEM doesn't come with the aem uego wideband and won't support the oem one right? That's another $400 - $500 dollars right there if that's the case.

 

[JDM EJ1 95]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

i got my hondata for 875 brand new... (sent in my ecu)

 

[DamonRSX]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the $1600 AEM doesn't come with the aem uego wideband and won't support the oem one right? That's another $400 - $500 dollars right there if that's the case.

It does support the stock sensor, but not recommended, per Katman in an earlier post. The stock sensor supposedly doesn't read accurately at high temps, so it is probably safer to use open-loop just like K-pro. I think if the exhaust temp is really that high, the engine is probably in a high RPM/high load situation already. Although, on multiple WOT runs, I have never noticed the stock sensor giving inconsistent readings. It probably makes more of a difference on FI engines.

 

[Razathorn]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

It does support the stock sensor, but not recommended, per Katman in an earlier post. The stock sensor supposedly doesn't read accurately at high temps, so it is probably safer to use open-loop just like K-pro. I think if the exhaust temp is really that high, the engine is probably in a high RPM/high load situation already. Although, on multiple WOT runs, I have never noticed the stock sensor giving inconsistent readings. It probably makes more of a difference on FI engines.

I haven't ever heard of an oem sensor reading wrong when it gets hot unless it's been damaged with burning oil in the exhaust... in which case, it starts reading artifically lean and goes WAY off into lean land until it returns back to sanity as it cools down. The oem wideband is much less tollerant than other aftermarket ones. When it is in good working order, it's very accurate. It's just fragile compared to the uego and others. Having said that, the only people I've ever heard having issues with them were running race gas or had bad turbo seals. I've never had any issues with boost and alcohol injection.

The oem wideband is a 'current pump' design -- reading voltage alone doesn't do it, so I'd be really interested in knowing how the aem properly interfaces with it as I was certainly under the impression that it could not because it wasn't just a 'voltage based wideband lambda sensor'.

Wayne

 

[Matador]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

Personally being a avid drag racer, the only factor that bothers me about the EMS is the 2step as its a very important feature to me. Could someone throw in some personal input on their experience with k pro and the 2 step? Me personally, loved the 2 step on just my street tire setup as it gave me one less thing to think about when launching, but i heard on slicks its a whole different story. Could someone clarify this for me?

 

[jon v]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

isn't the OEM sensor a "semi-wideband" compared to the true "Uego wideband"...

 

[Razathorn]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

Personally being a avid drag racer, the only factor that bothers me about the EMS is the 2step as its a very important feature to me. Could someone throw in some personal input on their experience with k pro and the 2 step? Me personally, loved the 2 step on just my street tire setup as it gave me one less thing to think about when launching, but i heard on slicks its a whole different story. Could someone clarify this for me?

K-pro has a launch rev limiter -- that's it. Below 5mph, the rev limiter can be set to something else. For anti-lag, if you want to experiment with it, you can try and use one of the nitrous control panels to alter fuel and ignition under certain conditions. It's not designed for that. I hope this clears up exactly what k-pro offers. You should download kmanager from hondata's website and browse the 'parameters' window to see what's available.

 

[Matador]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

K-pro has a launch rev limiter -- that's it. Below 5mph, the rev limiter can be set to something else. For anti-lag, if you want to experiment with it, you can try and use one of the nitrous control panels to alter fuel and ignition under certain conditions. It's not designed for that. I hope this clears up exactly what k-pro offers. You should download kmanager from hondata's website and browse the 'parameters' window to see what's available.

O yea, i got k pro dont get me wrong the rev limit does its job for me personally when launching on street tires, but from people who have run their cars on K pro from what i heard was they perfer to just go with out no rev limit because its not useful for launching on slicks? Can anyone throw in their input on this as i have never launched my kpro equiped car on slicks?

 

[Razathorn]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

isn't the OEM sensor a "semi-wideband" compared to the true "Uego wideband"...

The oem wideband is lab certified to .1 a/f from 11.5 - around 20:1. If you want to read mixtures richer than 11.5, you should use another wideband. Most boosted setups run from 11.5 - 12.0 anyway so it hasn't really been an issue. I don't know what you would qualify as a 'true' wideband. It most certainly is accurate across a wide range. It's not a narrow band that is either 'leaner or richer than 14.7:1'

Wayne

 

[itsjustacivic]

Re: cont. AEM vrs hondata. the rumors, the difference, the truth

wayne....you know nothing about tuning boosted cars on kpro.



and for the other guy.....

i had a few wiring problems with my swap....

and kpro told me what the problems were, and i fixed them. still never threw a cel.

as for AEM, well, i had that in my turbo GSR set up. we have a VERY good licensed AEM tuner here in kansas city, and after talking to him, he started tuning crome pro, and he said it was better in everyway but datalogging in comparison to AEM. it was much more basic, and altho it would not control nearly as much, to some people that is less important (i.e. street cars). its all about what is more user friendly and tunable. i have had no expearience tuning AEM, but i have with crome and kpro, and i will say, they are both MUCH more user friendly, and less daunting when the program is first started up.