[Kowalski999]

Intake part is really important. After I did this on my car like blind ass... than my friend wanted to do same mods on same flash/map that I had.
So I measured wot lambda for every mod.
Stock was .89
Header and no cat .91
Inteke box mod with piperx filter .94 and .95 with kn filter.

Stock box was realy bad design, inlet is 74mm exit is 82mm but v.stack on the exit was 78mm. I was looking at it and thinking that can be good and than after remodeling it, it was almost catastrophic lol.

 

[LotusElise]

Mine just went lean after induction mod and made this problem.

Ah, understood.

And don't assume that our tuners knows what he is doing as we have here 2 cases proving that they don't. This should be their job, not mine.

I am now 7 years in that business and revised tunes of almost every big name of that scene. The market is squeezed by expected costs of below 800 Euro, no matter how much work should be done and by tuners who don't tune for quality just for cheap. That destroyed a fair market share.

If I tune an engine 80 % to perfection I need around 15-20 h from a base tune and even more from scratch. If I would quote labor cost of 100 Euro/h, for which no dealership here in Germany turns any single finger (120-160 Euro/h) I would not be able to start any business in the mass market. Tuning is for me a money cycling process, which is funny, but you don't feed a family with it as I expect to do it. And if you want the big customers you need to invest into a proper dyno cell, which would cost here in Germany about 250 k€ to get it legal as a plug and play starting point. Our DIY engine dyno cell cost still round about 60 k€.

Tuning business run it down itself, root cause is the low knowledge in the business which gave many the chance to supply low quality for a low price. Customers don't see that as only few know how it feels to drive a fully quality tuned engine. It is a world of difference. But how should they know it when even the big names offer only low quality? See my analysis of the tuning scene from 5 years ago: Call for better tuning quality! | Honda / Acura K20a K24a Engine Forum.

Stock was .89...Header and no cat .91...Inteke box mod with piperx filter .94 and .95 with kn filter.

thanks for sharing 🆙!

 

[LotusElise]

I still had a decompression plate fitted at the time.

What do you mean by a decompression plate? Maybe I just miss a picture in mind to translate it for me?!

 

[Lotus]

it had a copper shim fitted to reduce compression ratio, a left over from running high CR pistons with boost. But this also increased squish.
Later with proper lower compression pistons and better head gaskets with a flat fire ring design that does not damage the cylinder head, I was able to remove it.

 

[LotusElise]

it had a copper shim fitted to reduce compression ratio, a left over from running high CR pistons with boost. But this also increased squish.

Thansk for your feedback. So it was a copper ring, which was located in the bore or also outside the bore to create also a sealing function? When it reduced CR I would assume the 2nd.

 

[Lotus]

it was essentially a replicate of the head gasket CNC cut from soft annealed copper.
The head side surface was sealed with Hylomar blue and the bottom side to the liners with a SAIC N-series Rover head gasket. Sealed fine even at 1 bar of boost.

 

[LotusElise]

The head side surface was sealed with Hylomar blue and the bottom side to the liners with a SAIC N-series Rover head gasket. Sealed fine even at 1 bar of boost.

Sounds like a good and cost effective approach.

 

[Kowalski999]

@LotusEllise Definitely agree with you, I have only basic knowledge about this stuff, just enough to know how to keep engine in one peace. For full bolton stock cl9/tsx tuning should be in 400-500eur range as it has been done to death. Every good tuner can tune it in under 4h on stock ecu or under 2h with Hondata. For custom turbo or s/c I wouldn't expect it to be under 800eur consider all the expertise that goes on based on what you shared in posts above + advising that is needed on choice of correct parts in order to have reliable and enjoyable car as end result.

One local honda shop (that everyone would point you to if you need work on your project) went thru 3 engines on gen6 ATR and 25 000 euros before they managed to turbo that thing without melting it to piss. End results was 450 chp...

When I had problems and try to figure out what is going on with my car I went to that shop for engine inspection, told them what was going on and my concerns. At that time I was using motul xcess 5w40 and during last 3000km of driving I saw some sludge starting to build up under the valve cover. That shouldn't be happening as average oil change is 6000km and I drive it easy/normally 90% of the time. Left the car there, got the call to come for the car and told me that everything was fine. Was like oke... Than I find new tuner who flashed my car with "proper" map for the mods. So wasn't running lean anymore but the car wasn't running right.

I put on 15.5kg wheel+tire on vs 20kg old set, did port inlet side of tb, performed engine flush, service and went on the dyno to see what is up... graf looked like crap. Old (.95 lambda, 25.5igt) was nice and straight and new one had bunch dips in it.

Than I started researching again... Found out that new map has only 20 IGT in it and people who have map from same tuner for same fuel have 23.5-24 igt... I got refund after that one. God knows why he put that on my car...

Than I found out that motul oil that I was using is not full synt ( in Germany it is not advertised as full synt because it is not, only in countries with low regulations they sell it as 100% synt) and is prone to sludge at high temps.

Than again I find a new tuner who tells me from this picture that plugs are coated in aluminium because of knock

Than everything made sense. Sludge started to form because of sludge prone oil was cooking on high because of shit tune that was overheating everything in combustion chamber.
And this shop that I was led to believe were experts were not because they couldn't see the problem right in front of their eyes and some guy saw it from this picture.

After replacing plugs car started pulling better and I couldn't feel that dip in power before vtc point, car was pulling linear like before.
Than did compression test, leakdown and endoscopy my self to see what the damage was... it performed fine but there was bunch of craters on pistons.
Than Switched to ravenol vsi and for past 3000km oil is still at the top dot, real happy with this oil.
Also changed solenoid gasket after engine flush to see if there was some trash in there. It checked out fine

Conclusion to all of this b.s., would be much better if I turned to right person for advising and tuning form the get go. Would save me bunch of time and hassle.

 

[Lotus]

ignition timing being too retarded causes exhaust temperatures and engine temperatures to dramatically increase.
To make things worse, decomposing and evaporating oil lowers the knock threshold further.

"6" heat range NGK plugs are way too warm for a turbo build.
Common are NGK BKR9EIX for forced induction K-series. I also use them for years now.

 

[LotusElise]

One local honda shop (that everyone would point you to if you need work on your project) went thru 3 engines on gen6 ATR and 25 000 euros before they managed to turbo that thing without melting it to piss. End results was 450 chp...Every good tuner can tune it in under 4h on stock ecu or under 2h with Hondata...Found out that new map has only 20 IGT in it and people who have map from same tuner for same fuel have 23.5-24 igt... I got refund after that one. God knows why he put that on my car...

Wow, that sounds like a long enduring mess around. I am not sure what you call a good tuner? According to time I would be a bad one, race engine tunes take about 18-30 h, street applicated engines about 8-18 h when I tune those. Tuning includes maps for lambda, ignition timing, cam phase, correction tables for IAT, ECT, PA and safety modules. I never finished a tune in 2 h, but even customer wife's respond, asking if the husband if he installed a new engine 😆, it's so smooth and crispy on the gas and feels so powerful. Before the tune I and the customer invested around 1-2 h for engine health status measurement, pre-tune logging another 1 h and discussion of status quo of the parts as well as suggestions for improvements in respect of harmonizing the engine setup. Sometimes I invest 3-6 h to supply 1D-simulations to suggest possible power curve changes of different mods to make it more visible for customer. So about 2-9 h infront of the tune plus a tune of 8-18 h for e.g. a street/short track race application.

I've tuned race winning teams and never had issues even in harshest environments like in South Africa, where Winter to Summer temperature difference can be up to 55 °C and altitude from 0 to almost 1800 m over sea level. It works out on Speed-Density-Systems the full year on that range of altitude. To get a tune functional with one tuning session you must paste and copy, but that approach has nothing to do with tuning, it's what it is called: paste and copy. Every engine has individual needs, every application has individual needs, every driver have different favorite engine behaviors. Alone tip in tuning can take a day for a race engine setup when going through all gears and IAT's and MAP. Take the difference of curve control on the gas pedal of Michael Schuhmacher and Ayrton Senna, tooootally different driving stiles and tuning needs. Guys like Schuhmacher need a very precise load control, which goes over hardware down to the software into a tune, while Senna adapted the former less load control behavior into his driving style, which makes an e.g. totally different tip in fueling concept. If you would tune both the same you would see either one of that cars flying from the track all the time and at least one very angry and dissatified driver.

May I have a different definition of tuning then you have or I got your statement misread, but quality can't be reached in a tune by copy and paste, everything need to be at least checked and eventually tuned. Honda iVTEC systems have therefore 36 maps on a 10° VTC resolution, at least 7 correction tables and a few parameters to setup as well as (depending on Tuning hard- and software) safety modules. Some standalone solutions, I've knowhow and had tuned at least 15 different ECU's types since my start, like MoTec (now merged with BOSCH ), BOSCH or AEM can have over 100 maps, correction tables and so on, I have alone 8 to tune for idle on newer OEM engines. You can't handle that in 2 h. I've corrected so many top dog tunes, which gone just wrong as they don't understand the SW in there depth and the engine needs. There were engines from 5-4300 hp, from NA to 6.5 bar of boost, from remote and onsite. I have the advantage of have programmed SW functions for ECU commands, the background of every engine system I already developed at an OEM, I have tuned engines at an OEM and I investigated field/customer engine failures and know many different damage processes. I might understand the engine and their needs, maybe therefore I never would left a tune after 2 h as "tuned".

I made that call for tuning quality for reason, 60 % of my customers come to me because other tuner didn't satisfy the customer and engine needs.

Than I found out that motul oil that I was using is not full synt ( in Germany it is not advertised as full synt because it is not, only in countries with low regulations they sell it as 100% synt) and is prone to sludge at high temps...Than Switched to ravenol vsi and for past 3000km oil is still at the top dot, real happy with this oil.

I have several endurance oil test engines in racing and street applications, the Motul top type 300V has some advantages, but comes with huge disadvantages. It's a race formulation, nothing for street cars. The Ravenol USVO technology oil and it's derived types like RSP, VIS, VSW and so on are really good oils on the base oil and additive side, which are quite good match for street and some race applications. All my engines run specified oil grades and formulations according application, cooling performance and engine clearances as well as oil pump technologies. Not many things get less complex once you dive deeper 😆.

would be much better if I turned to right person for advising and tuning form the get go

If you decide according the time it takes it may fail. It's all about the thingy inside what came out. If your wife says after 3 tune attempts at different tuners and after the last tuner change: "...the engine feels like so differently smooth and powerful 🤗! Did you again buy an new one, huuuuh 🤨?" Then may your tuner choice was right. Serious, it's simple there are tuners mean they know how to tune, tuners who know to tune and have experience and there are tuners reading the engine needs and giving just what it needs. You just choose the 3rd one.

 

[Kowalski999]

@LotusElise
I expressed my self in a wrong way, told you that my knowledge is (not even) basic lol.
Was thinking about tuners who do cl9 cars every day and already have maps for similar setup to mine. Than It is a matter of copy paste than adjusting it for my car and not doing it from ground up. I was quoted 2hours on the dyno after God know how long on the street. My friend was quoted 4h on the dyno by different tuner.. and you are different person from others that I can see, extremely invested in your craft. Stuff that I'm doing and tune that I need is laughable in comparison to what you are doing. + Im on stock ecu so not much "tailored" adjustment can be done.
If I was to build turbo k24 c124 than I would be knocking on your door 😁.

 

[LotusElise]

+ Im on stock ecu so not much "tailored" adjustment can be done.

This was also on a stock ECU: Official: Dyno Chart Comparison & Calibration Registry | Page 63 | Honda / Acura K20a K24a Engine Forum, but if you mean so 😇. Just another tailoring of a previous tuners work.

 

[LotusElise]

@Brotatochip, is there any progress or plan you will go or do you leave it just like it is?

 

[Brotatochip]

I was not able to find my compression tester and have not tried my leak down tester. I've still been working my way through the stages of grief so I've had no motivation to work on the car I think I've finally gotten to the acceptance stage and was planning on working on it some tonight.

I plan on pulling the engine without running any tests. Something is definitely wrong with cylinder 2, likely a ring land. Engine will get torn down to investigate/rebuild anyways. All I've done so far is get it up on jack stands, drain coolant and A/C, remove splash panels, remove air intake, and begin disconnecting hoses.

Part of me wants to buy a used K24a2 and install just to get the car running quickly. It would be using the same tune but wouldn't be tracked again this year. Over the winter I could then rebuild this engine and get another tune. Also thought about keeping the K24a2, getting an improved manifold/turbo, then a proper tune so I don't have to rebuild a block. I just haven't decided how much I want to spend on this unplanned engine rebuild/replacement.

 

[LotusElise]

I've still been working my way through the stages of grief so I've had no motivation to work on the car .

😄. On which stage of grief according the Kübler-Ross-model are you actually?

Something is definitely wrong with cylinder 2, likely a ring land.

Recognition based on assumption or a leak down test?

Also thought about keeping the K24a2, getting an improved manifold/turbo, then a proper tune so I don't have to rebuild a block.

Would my favorite way to go .

 

[Brotatochip]

😄. On which stage of grief according the Kübler-Ross-model are you actually?

I would say I'm in the acceptance stage, likely in the experiment section

Recognition based on assumption or a leak down test?

Based on the fact the cylinder 2 spark plug and piston (from what I can see through the tube) are coated in oil. It was also drastically down on power compared to NA form telling me there is certainly low compression somewhere.

Would my favorite way to go .

This is the way I've been leaning, mostly because I could get it up and running much quicker. Initially only costing me the price of a K24a2 with the manifold and turbo coming later. At the same time I worry about having the same issue at a track day next year.

 

[Brotatochip]

Engine (and trans) have been out for nearly two weeks now. Finally had some time the last two days to tear into it. First thing I found, one of the turbo to manifold nuts was completely missing. The remaining three were hardly any more than hand tight. I'm sure I had those tight before the car ever started, clearly they came loose at some point in the engines <2k miles of turbo life. Anyways, pulled the head to find much less damage than I imagined.

Vertical scraping on the cylinder wall and damage near the top (detonation?).

No chuck of ringland missing, but the piston to wall gap seems very large on the intake side. Same side as the scraping.

With piston at TDC. You can see the piston does not look perfectly circular on this side anymore.

One final picture of piston 3. You can tell the difference of a good vs bad piston.

I cannot really feel the vertical scrapes on the cylinder wall but I can definitely feel the marks at the top. The piston doesn't look like it's broken but it's definitely missing some material. Have not pulled the pan/pump yet but hoping to get to that this weekend.

 

[Bjorn]

The ring probably got hot and expanded too big for the bore size. Extra ring gap would stop that.

The ringland that breaks is nearly always the one under the first ring. The chunk usually stays captive between the rings until you get the piston out.

There's no obvious signs of real bad detonation that I'm familiar with. It may have just been inadequate ring gap that caused the whole problem.

 

[Brotatochip]

I was expecting to find a chunk out of the top. I've only ever seen ringland damage once before on that WRX engine and it was the very top that broke. We'll see if a piece in the middle is broken when I pull the piston, hopefully this weekend.

 

[Lotus]

it usually breaks in between the rings. This section is usually thinner that the piston crown. The top breaking off is commonly heat damage. You start overheating the thin crown section at the valve pockets. The alloy melts at the pocket edges and the section in between severely overheats and gets weakened.
The heat also promoted knock further inducing heat. Next, the crown in between the valve pockets breaks off exposing the top ring’s top side.

This is how this looks like. This is a Wössner 2618 alloy forged piston with poorly machined valve pocket edges. They left thin walls standing that melted. I was using the same pistons with the same defect, but was running direct port water injection. The outer walls were nevertheless starting to bend inwards. They were not far away from the same failure. So after a trackday in Spa I had the pleasure to remove the pistons for solely the purpose of using a Dremel tool to ground off the walls to achieve a 1.5mm minimum wall thickness.
20 minutes of Dremel work and an 8h job talking everything apart and back together again.
Comment of the UK chap designing the pistons "I forgot that in the design and then forgot that I usually fix this before shipping them..." He always sold batches of 5 once every year or so. Lame excuse. I am sure he plainly did not know. And Wössner did either also not know or did not care when they put it all in the CNC. I suspect there is a young engineer that just edits some numbers on a parametric piston model and has no/low insights on the true design foundations of piston features.

This picture shows an other piston of the same engine, a turbocharged Rover K18 with the valve pocket wall starting to collapse. This would have failed on short order.

Looking at your damage, I’d also say you got classic ring butting with the extending ring scraping off the liner. It is most severe at the 2nd ring and less so on the top ring. Piston side and tilt forces reach their maximum at TDC. Then there is damage above the top ring. I had something similar. This is caused by hard oil coke forming on the sides of the piston crown from decomposing oil. It grinds of the liner. The piston tilt pushes the crown into the rough liner and also wears the crown itself. My supertech forged pistons also had this in my k22 stroker. High rev limits amplify piston tilt and side forces.
In your case, the liner damage caused oil to pass the ring and coking up on the hot piston crown. This coke scared of the liner at the top.

here is a picture showing oil coke scraping off the liner all the way to the top of the liner/crown.

Regarding turbo flange bolts, this is rather common once you get some heat and heat cycling in there.
Imperfect turbo support amplifies the problem, i.e. the weight of the turbocharger dangling soles on the manifold. There is only one bolt solution that really works here, Inconel bolts, a high nickel superalloy.