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Drag Cartel 3.2's

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#101 ·
LOL i am so confused,becuase i have ordered these cams and await arrival for my 12.4 cr k24/k20r built motor.some have good reviews some are dropping valves.its my DD so i want it to be reliable.k20 motors are rare here.had to import from Japan for 4500$.so i cant risk an engine failure.
Should i order Elite pro 2.5 series cams ? as my tuner says dc 3.2 has shorter power band.(i want piece of mind,i dont care my dc 3.2 will not be used etc etc)
Plus i have a crowded city.no track here.so i want my powr band more to the left,4500-7000 rpms.(i wont rev past 8000)
will elite pro have idle problem? plus i see on drag cartel website that for elite pro 2.5 adjustable exhaust cam gear is needed?
http://www.dragcartel.com/pro-elite-002_5.php
 
#102 ·
Nivek said:
LOL i am so confused,becuase i have ordered these cams and await arrival for my 12.4 cr k24/k20r built motor.some have good reviews some are dropping valves.its my DD so i want it to be reliable.k20 motors are rare here.had to import from Japan for 4500$.so i cant risk an engine failure.
Should i order Elite pro 2.5 series cams ? as my tuner says dc 3.2 has shorter power band.(i want piece of mind,i dont care my dc 3.2 will not be used etc etc)
Plus i have a crowded city.no track here.so i want my powr band more to the left,4500-7000 rpms.(i wont rev past 8000)
will elite pro have idle problem? plus i see on drag cartel website that for elite pro 2.5 adjustable exhaust cam gear is needed?
http://www.dragcartel.com/pro-elite-002_5.php
Click to expand...
If you want reliable cams, that will not be a risk for your motor, order TODA A3. They only need single TODA springs, your motor will idle almost stock and they have the broadest torque curve from all aftermarkets cam in 4500-7000 rpm range. I know people that reached 300HP and 300Nm with them on K20/K24 motor not passing 8000 rpm limit.

These are japanese cams. There are no better products that products from Japan. Sorry guys ;)
 
#103 · (Edited)
All toda's camshafts are reliable not only spec A3. On the high vtec lobe A3,C,D,E,F lifts are the same.Duration only changing (5 degree intake and exhaust from stage to stage) smooth engage vtec,very friendly to chain tensioner,chain.
Especially friendly to valves ..
Important case the stress to valves!!
I had more than 80.000km with a2,a3 and never had a problem.
This company first give attention to reliability and second to performance.

A3 are very small cams for k24/k20.
D,E,F are the goals..
I run with prayoonto cams last 2.5 years with 35.000km.
Changed the valves twice before some break
 
#104 ·
K20actr.J said:
A3 are very small cams for k24/k20.
D,E,F are the goals..
Click to expand...
K20actr.J I will not agree with you. A3 have lower and asymetrical low lobes, which will give you better dynamic compression during under vtec drive and therefore better torque on daily drive 12,4 CR motor. High lobe lifts are the same no matter which A3, C, D, E or F you choose. The only difference, as you mentioned, is duration that is 5* longer every each stage of those cams. But for a DD and K24 like motor shorter duration is better because you have lower vtec engagement, torque is shifted left and you don't have to spin your enginge 8000+ rpm which would essentially shorten his expensive engine life. Toda E-F cams are not the cams for K24 based engine.

C-F stage TODA cams are cams that were genuinely designed for K20 engines. With longer duration and much higher redline, but lower lifts. But pretty agressive ramps in all of these cams (including A3) are very efficient also in K24.

And I have TODA D cams in my K24/K20 frank, so basically I know how they handle :) I also tested TODA A3 and E stages.
 
#105 · (Edited)
I had on my k22 and k23 (if read my thread)a3 and pr3.




Green line power pr3
Dark blue line torque pr3
Yellow line power A3
Open blue line torque A3.
I saw different results than that you wrote.
I mean pr3 with more lift low lobe gives better power.
Higher too.
A3 are cams midrange only on k24 and higher on k20.

Maby your engine hasn't enough compression.

I speak always for forged engine when k24 k24 could rev 8900 +

I am faster with pr3 on road racing roll 65-70 km with 2nd gear for example than toda a3.low range too
On drag too
 
#106 · (Edited)
K20actr.J said:
Maby your engine hasn't enough compression.

I speak always for forged engine when k24 k24 could rev 8900 +

I am faster with pr3 on road racing roll 65-70 km with 2nd gear for example than toda a3.low range too
On drag too
Click to expand...
My engine is 12,5:1. It has enough compression. It gives more than 300HP and 300Nm on TODA D and E. On A3 it gives almost 300HP and more than 300Nm about 300-400rpm sooner which is much better for DD, and a lot of more torque on low lobe than D, E or F.

Graphs you posted are useless in K24 engine, where you have red line at 8000rpm and totally different VE. Forged or not, pistons speed is to high and maybe you will not break anything if you use high quality stuff, but the side walls wear will be huge.

The guy who asked for advice above, asked for cams advice concerning K24 that must be reliable and daily drive. TODA C-F are not a daily drive cams for K24. Of course you can use them and they will behave better than for example DC4 cams, but in C-F cams higher low lobe lift will idle much worse than in A3. TODA A3 cams idle almost like stock and have much more compression on low lobe. You will lose like 5HP at max with them and gain like 5-10Nm 300-400tpm sooner.
 
#107 ·
And K20actr.J, If this is a K24 graph I think that on A3 cams you have your VTEC set much to late (5600-6000rpm?). Look how my graph on TODA D and 4000 VTEC loks like:

Max torque is like 4500-6500rpm and not like in one point on your graph. Toda A3 will shift my graph into the left like about 300-400rpm. Additionaly TODA A3 will bump under vtec range 2000-4000 about 20-30Nm in some points.
 

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#108 ·
On A3 it gives almost 300HP and more than 300Nm about 300-400rpm sooner which is much better for DD, and a lot of more torque on low lobe than D, E or F.
Click to expand...
Yea i agree, is up to what like to do with projeck.

The only think is that i have see usually lifter cams gives better power low lob.
 
#109 ·
Wow guys, I appreciate your discussion and summaries of tuning results of the TODA cams. It shows furthermore finding the right torque curve and having a reliable engine setup is a great challenge and need some brain and reasearch work.

BTW K20actr.j, did you ever test the TODA C or D on your K22 engine?

What the discussion generally shows, cams effect the torque curve significantly in height level, broadness and shape. But not the cam only, also engine size, engine speed bandwidth and setup of it too. Nothing new :D, but for me I still miss the application, engine size and setup for the DC 3.2.

Markus
 
#110 ·
.And K20actr.J, If this is a K24 graph I think that on A3 cams you have your VTEC set much to late (5600-6000rpm?). Look how my graph on TODA D and 4000 VTEC loks like:
Click to expand...
K22 are results as i wrote if see
Only 2157 cc 270Nm with toda a3..but after 7000 engine just revving.with pr3 7000-9300 pull stronger..
 
#111 ·
Thanks folks for quick and nice answers.esp K20actr.J and deibral,i know k24 piston speeds at 8000 almost equals 9000-9500 of k20 and their moevement becomes eliptical too which needs a balanced crank which i am not using.although my internals are all forged with ACL bearing too but i wont rev past 8000.and as i have Honda Fit which weights less (1040kg),so k24 natural torque will feel nice even out of vtec. my main goal is that when VTEC hit,it should hit hard and every one in car should feel the difference. i think DC cams do that.and i discussed the issue with my tuner last night,he told that dropping valve is not a cam issue.its the valve seat issue.he says he has seen 3 stock k20 also dropping valves.So i think i am gonna go ahead and try these 3.2.
Also one big factor which will hold me back is that i cant fit nice headers,as space is too restricted.i am talking about milimiter gaps.so it will be FD2R stock headers with custom 2.75 exhaust which have two almost 90* bends(thanks to central fuel tank in honda Fits:cry:)
 
#112 ·
Nivek said:
Thanks folks for quick and nice answers.esp K20actr.J and deibral,i know k24 piston speeds at 8000 almost equals 9000-9500 of k20 and their moevement becomes eliptical too which needs a balanced crank which i am not using.although my internals are all forged with ACL bearing too but i wont rev past 8000.and as i have Honda Fit which weights less (1040kg),so k24 natural torque will feel nice even out of vtec. my main goal is that when VTEC hit,it should hit hard and every one in car should feel the difference. i think DC cams do that.and i discussed the issue with my tuner last night,he told that dropping valve is not a cam issue.its the valve seat issue.he says he has seen 3 stock k20 also dropping valves.So i think i am gonna go ahead and try these 3.2.

Also one big factor which will hold me back is that i cant fit nice headers,as space is too restricted.i am talking about milimiter gaps.so it will be FD2R stock headers with custom 2.75 exhaust which have two almost 90* bends(thanks to central fuel tank in honda Fits:cry:)
Click to expand...

Here is my result. K24a2 with dc 3.2. Skunk2 header. 3" exhaust, rbc



<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/53230890@N08/30032943574/in/album-72157645949227028/" title="Untitled"><img src="https://c7.staticflickr.com/6/5500/30032943574_9437243265_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="Untitled"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>[/QUOTE]






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#115 ·
K20actr.J said:
Guys,I don't like to play a dick, but he stress on the valves created by the hard motion.
This hard motion created by sharp ramp high lobe when engage vtec..

I had tested k24 with toda E.
Quaite Idle,smooth transition by high lobe.

Better power 7-8500 than A3 of course
Click to expand...
I agree with you 100%. That is why stiff ramps on old Skunk2 cams were so harsh on tensioners.

TODAs have also stiff ramps but their lower lifts (1-2mm lower than DC cams) compensate that and VTEC crossover is very very smooth. It's like you almost had one lobe system with very wide power curve.

DC 3.2 or Elite have higher lifts. They are maybe less stiff byt you have significant VTEC kick on those cams - like on stock K20. VTEC is louder, but that does not mean that it is better at all.

Next 2 weeks I should have comparison of TODA D and DC Elite from my dyno on the same engine. But just right know I can say that VTEC crossover is like 400-600rpm higher on DC Elite what shortens effective high torque range on K24 engine much. However DC Elite may give like 5-10HP more on the top. Great for track days, worse for daily drive.

With DC cams you also have to use like supertech double springs which in my opinion give you another risk factor, as they are harsh on you head and sometimes break which will cost you new engine. TODA springs are very good for the head and can take long distance stress well.
 
#117 · (Edited)
Always double springs are safer than the single
When you break one of the two (usually the outside) the other holds the valve and the return to the stable.
Sound will hear noise and stops the engine. Unless someone makes stupidity and continues to drive hard ..


But never i have see todas springs braked.
I have see ferrea since spring broken.
 
#119 ·
K20actr.J said:
Always double springs are safer than the single
When you break one of the two (usually the outside) the other holds the valve and the return to the stable.
Sound will hear noise and stops the engine. Unless someone makes stupidity and continues to drive hard ..
Click to expand...
That depends on what engine speed you break it. If at 9000 rpm than you will probably break your valve and trash the engine.
 
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