Excellent job thank you

 

Amazing work. As expected header had good gains.

So RRC was much better than RSP. Interesting.

Sent fra min E5603 via Tapatalk

 

Here in sweden you pay $50 for a used RSP, and it made 11hk. So its very good power-to-cash ratio. And the characerists is very much like the k24a2/3 aka RBB manifold. RSP didnt want so much VTC. Almost like stock. Very good and strong idle and low rpms.

The RRC needs alot more tuning below 2000rpm to get soft and smooth during wintertime with snow and ice outside.
RRC is a tad weaker between 2000-4600rpm, the real takeoff is after 5800rpms! Thats were all the gains is.

Next is to try the skunk2 Ultra Street manifold, after that E85.(or E75 proberbly during this cold time of year).

 

I seen you said you wanted to investigate why the 3 inch pipe made no power over the previous configuration, At 200whp, a 2.5" pipe is sufficient for flow and would be plenty enough after cat deletes. 2.5" exhaust will flow enough for 275-300hp.

 

My stock exhaust measured 48mm on the outside just after the first silencer. Thats like 43-45mm inside(thats 1.75"!!).

EVERY k20 and k24 I have seen on the dyno with 70mm-76mm(2.75'-3')has made MORE horsepower than similiar setups with 2.5" or smaller exhausts.

Like one FN2 with K20z4, skunk2 mani and intake, j35 TB, toda replica header and Drag cartel cams. Changing from a Matrelius 55mm exhaust to a invidia 70mm gained 22hp!!! (Before we both that 70mm we just welded a sidepipe straight from the header to find out if it was the catback that was holding down the power. The sidepipe gave 23hp more than the Martelius..).

Also a EP3 type R (I made a thread here like 2months ago about that car) gained 11hp going from Buddyclub 63,5mm(2,5") to K-tuned oval 3".

So now on my k24 that I had pushed almost 50whp more than stock from but still with stock exhaust I thought that I would se like 10-15hp going fronm 48mm to 76mm. Or at least some power gains. But no, nada! That is strange. Made it was the limit for the RSP manifold that hold it back, hard to say. I NEED to put the stock exhaust back on and measure it on the dyno WITH the RarC mani. Then I will know!

 

Thanks for the detailed description of the manifolds. Did not know the rsp was cheap here (I'm from Norway/trondheim).

S2US will be interesting. From the testing Andrej has done you might not gain anything below 7500 compared to RRC.

E70 will probably gain a little bit.

How is the fitment of these manifolds in the Accord chassis? And what year is yours? Did not know you can use flash pro on the cl9.

 

The guys here with Civic Type R FN2 wants RRC or skunk2 manifolds. So there is alot of old used RSPs lying in their garages. For them its just a ugly piece of metal.

My Accord is a -03. But its 99,5% the same thrue all the years 03-08. My last accord that I sold 5years ago was a -08 Type S Special Edition.
With that one I used dual ecu's and kpro. It was alot of headache with that, like no cruise controll and no MIL for the kpro etc.
Nowadays Hondata made the flashpro work with it. All I had to do was to install a TSX ecu 07-08 and a one wire to the multiplexor. (0,5m wire above the glove box).
Now VSA and Cruise and that sort of stuff works fine. (I do hate to wait that 90seconds when uploading the calibration to flashpro!!)

There is ALOT of space in a Accord CL9 enginebay! Rotrex, mercracing big superchargerkitt, turbokits, BIG manifolds, itbs, whatever you want fits in that bay!! Its made for a v6 to fit!

http://www.moibbk.com/images/acura-tsx-engine-9.jpg
http://jrphotodesign.net/euror/2012.11.03/_DSC0075.jpg
http://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t5...702490300_8278757734594117632_n.jpg?ig_cache_key=MTQ0NTE3Nzk1ODM5Nzg3NDMxMg==.2

 

...modification on a k24.
183hk@199nm, STOCK (146whp)
191hk@209nm, Hondata Flashpro & quick tuning
195hk@213nm, as above + Spark plugs
199hk@219nm, as above + K-tuned 3"airfilter w Velocitystack. (165whp)
197hk@220nm, as above + 72mm TB & portmatched entry in the manifold.
210hk@225nm, as above but with oem TB + RSP-mani
213hk@232nm, as above + no cat
218hk@237nm, as above + k20a2 oilpump
220hk@240nm, as above + 50 VTC-gear + 72mm TB
231hk@252nm, as above + Header PLM 4-2-1 (195whp)
231hk@252nm, as above + 3"exhast (need to go back to this and investigate)
241hk@253nm, as above + RRC mani (stock mani and with 72mm TB, so there is a big schart edge for the air to pass in the entry of RRC)(need to port the entry)

I just can say thank you malkolm666 for sharing your huge effort on that interesting investigation. Sad, there is no overlay of torque lines in one graph, would be interesting to see the quality difference beside that two points of the torque line.

To your diameter related exhaust recognition. Did you see any difference of the cam phasing between stock and 3" exhaust? Any difference in igntion timing. Normally the residual exhaust content in the combustion chamber get
s reduced due to the lower exhaust gas pressure in the exhaust system and an advance of ign. timing and VTC can be observed. If there is nothing of that viewable, my next question would be, did you only change the pipe diameter or and the muffler too?

I appreciate your investigation effort, many thanks for it :up:

Markus

 

Markus, you are spot on!

I changed both the piping and the mufflers/silencers. 3 kinda big 76mm straight true silencers. 1 is round with an inner empty chamber in the middle, the other two is oval.

First run without changing the map I actually lost some power, about 4-5hp. So I had to change both VTC and put more ignition on to climb up to the same horsepowers.
With the old exhaust it didnt like high VTC nor high ignition. Vtc was at max 25 (except at 4200-4600rpms). But most common was like 17-22degrees.
Ignition was never higher than 24degrees.
I have tried so many times, after every mod to increase VTC and Ignition, but it has everytime said -No! To me. It was really easy to see the signs, it directly and really showed what it didnt like. Hugh differens in knock level and a difference in 3degrees of VTC could lower the power with 10hp! The same with ignition, 2 degrees too much gave troubles direct.

Now with the new exhaust it never talk to me that way, I can do BIG changes with VTC and ignition and it just swallows it. 5degrees VTC usually only change 0-2hp. Nice and smooth. Ive been up on 28-29degrees with the ignition and that was no problems. Max power was around 27degrees.

http://www.hondaklubben.com/forum/download/file.php?id=6489&mode=view

 

With the old exhaust it didnt like high VTC nor high ignition. Vtc was at max 25 (except at 4200-4600rpms). But most common was like 17-22degrees. Ignition was never higher than 24degrees...Now with the new exhaust it never talk to me that way, I can do BIG changes with VTC and ignition and it just swallows it. 5degrees VTC usually only change 0-2hp. Nice and smooth. Ive been up on 28-29degrees with the ignition and that was no problems. Max power was around 27degrees.

To get the picture clear, I need more information about the difference of the calibrations of both: actually and previous.

My actual understanding is, previous setup did talk clearly where it like it most concerning intake cam and igntion timing.

• The VTC was like maximum at 25° and declining to 17° at peak power engine speed. Actually you can advance but it reacts indifferent to it. Where is max advance VTC angle? And what are the numbers of the last calibration at WOT?
• Ignition-wise a increase of 3° ca. was possible with the new header and exhaust setup. Here I would like to know which exhaust setup you did test finally.

From that what I see for know - and there is a huge input gap to complete the picture - the exhaust pressure wave timing is kind of wrong, I would have expected VTC values in the bandwidth of 4-6 krpm beyond 30°, partly up to 45°.

Root causes could be the exhaust cam centerline is not at stock position, header is having a bigger leckage,..., up to the neglibility of valve lash is to tight . But all that is just guessing without a clear engine setup, claibration, a WOT log and the troque lines in a graph. But one I can say, if the engine don't talk clear to you on VTC, there is something wrong in installation, setup or electric.

BTW, too much spot light reduces the foresight...I just want to help and learn .

Markus

 

http://www.hondaklubben.com/forum/download/file.php?id=6490&mode=view...green line is STOCK...red is with header and 3"exhaust...blue is with RRC

I am sorry malkolm666, I am not allowed to see this graph as I am no member there. Is there any other possibilty?

Markus

 

thank you for testing all of these parts!
I have a question... was the rsp better than the rrc for daily driving ( low rpms )?
Was the difference huge? or not so noticeable?

 

I dont want to answer this question yet. I need to tune it with RRC below 1500rpms first.


Btw I dailydrive it every day. And this morning we got some more snow. So I needed to drive the kids to school, driving to my work, and today after work Im going to a big mall, need to buy groceries.

My kids love going in my car, my wife hates to drive it!
The reason she dont like it is my clutch, to my knowledge the LIGHTEST there is to K-serie. Its a CC hyper series single clutch. Unsprung and total weight INCLUDE the flywheel is like 7,80kg.

What I want to say is that is DD for one person may not be driveable for someone else.
2% off the time I just LOVE my clutch, its so nice when driving hard and is good when streetracing to a Merc or audi or bmw
The rest of the time (like 98% of it) I dont like it.

Before and after RRC
Even with all the mods I did before I installed the RRC, the car had lots of torque and good power, but it was flat and boring on the top. It was no fun revving after 6000rpm. I love Honda charactar, but that was gone.
But then I added the RRC! Wow, now I have torquesteer in 2nd gear and its really fun from 6000-7600! Love it!
I will never go back to RBB or RSP manifold.

 

Here is the graph, can you see it?

 

Thanks for your effort, but I hardly can separate the lines in mind. PM'd you .

Markus

 

Thanks for posting this info! Very few TSX/CL9 guys mod their engine to this degree or at least post about it.

I'm running a RSP manifold in my 08 TSX as well, and as you know there is tons of room in the engine bay. I wish I could see the graph of the RSP vs RRC comparison.

Thats interesting the 3" exhaust didn't pick up any power over the stock exhaust. Here was an interesting comparison of a 3" setup in our chassis. Make sure you read all the way to the bottom of the page.
http://www.tsxclub.com/forums/1st-gen-engine/36591-official-dyno-charts-thread-18.html

 

Your header is holding power.

Just dyno tuned cl9 k24a3 230hp & 260nm
-rsp mani
-3" ex
-dc 4-2-1
-ktuner

Low vtc 25, high vtc 22-20

Same setup with 4-1 header liked 45vtc on high cam
and made +10hp and 20nm more.


Here is toda 4-2-1 vs 4-1 header on 2,5" ex

2,5" vs 3" with 4-1

Gained 20hp & 30nm in the middle and 15hp & 12nm peak with
bigger exhaust.

If your header is holding it you wont benefit from
bigger exhaust.

 

Your header is holding power...dc 4-2-1...Low vtc 25, high vtc 22-20...Same setup with 4-1 header liked 45vtc on high cam
and made +10hp and 20nm more.

I like it zof484 when you verificate my assumptions LOL .

 

what is the red line? toda or the 4-1?

 

7600.

Stock k24 valvesprings.

 

sorry, i meant what is the red graph line on the graph?
Is the red colored line the toda or the 4-1 header?

 

Is the red colored line the toda or the 4-1 header?

That's a good question, as zof484 talks about a DC 4-2-1 header and 4-1 header comparison, showing more torque and power for the last. But the Title of the picture states TODA 4-2-1...confusing of competitors LOL .

Markus

 

That's one of the problems with the TSX/CL9 chassis the header options are very limited. More so headers that actually make respectable power.

Unless you want to spend 1K+ on a header and even some those options have questionable performance.

 

That's one of the problems with the TSX/CL9 chassis the header options are very limited...

That long secondaries aren't a good idea, an easy option is to cut them...of course to the right measure, depending on engine setup and primaries lenght and diameter as so secondary diameter. These are almost long enough to peak below high speed cam :wink:.

Engine speed and tuned length and diameter are related together via crusing pressure wave with speed of sound at exhaust conditions (temperture, pressure plays a lower). So it is clear, the higher the engine speed, the shorter the distance the pressure wave can travel back and forward (or vice versa ). And this is true for every simplification, e.g. like the orders of the pressure wave.

If one want to calculate, always consider the wave runs out as a over pressure wave, reflects at diameter chances, from partly up to completely reflections, depending on the change rate.

Markus

 

Any way you can post a pic of your engine bay? Mostly want to see how the k tuned intake fits in the tsx?

 

I customized the 2nd part of the header, made it a 4-1 (instead of the 4-2-1), made 12hp less. Had crazy angles in to the collector.
Then I switched to E85 and gained 11hk@13nm.

Gamechanger
Now I have customized the PLM-header AGAIN, switched back to the original 2nd part but made the secondaries pipes waay shorter, and made a new collektor that is nice and smooth on the inside. Collector is now 2,5" and goes up to 3".
BUT!!
Now I also changed the engine!!
So I have no clue about if the header is better o worse!!
New engine falls on its knees really quick. Something is wrong. My guess is the header.. Hate it!!

Specs on new engine: 13.2 comp on E85, Manley H-rods. Portflow PRB head, DC stage4-cams. Ported RRC.

It feels so strong from idle, now I dont want the rsp/rbb low torque anymore. It runs great, sounds great, pulls so hard. Everything seems so good and nice until it just falls down after 7100-7200rpm.


183hk@199nm, STOCK (146whp)
191hk@209nm, Hondata Flashpro & quick tuning
195hk@213nm, as above + Spark plugs
199hk@219nm, as above + K-tuned 3"airfilter w Velocitystack. (165whp)
197hk@220nm, as above + 72mm TB & portmatched entry in the manifold.
210hk@225nm, as above but with oem TB + RSP-mani
213hk@232nm, as above + no cat
218hk@237nm, as above + k20a2 oilpump
220hk@240nm, as above + 50 VTC-gear + 72mm TB
231hk@252nm, as above + Header PLM 4-2-1 (195whp)
231hk@252nm, as above + 3"exhast (need to go back to this and investigate)
241hk@253nm, as above + RRC mani (stock mani and with 72mm TB, so there i 230hk@246nm, as above + 4-1 custom lower part of header
230hk@248nm, as above + ported RRC
240hk@260nm, as above + E85 (and 500cc injectors)
278hk@276nm, New engine + recustomized the header once more, now 4-2-1 again with shorter 2ndaries and bigger collector.


-red is with 4-1 crapy header and e85
-blue is new built engine with rebuilt header 4-2-1

 

Thanks for sharing your engine status quo malkolm666. Looks like you get addicted to higher power levels !

...Something is wrong...13.2 comp on E85...Portflow PRB head, DC stage4-cams. Ported RRC...until it just falls down after 7100-7200rpm...278hk@276nm...

About 14.8 bar peak BMEP at 5800 and 14.3 bar at peak power is good for an NA engine, but for this setup surprisingly low. I don't expect much from the DC OG series cams, as these have a drag lobe design (lobe design works at high engine speeds pretty good, but it needs high engine speed to work). Smooth to TCT, at the lower range of torque but holding it until high engine speeds, normally. And, the DC 4 are huge in both, cam lobe and duration. It fits better for an drage race applicated 87x99 or bigger bore engine, pushing engine speed up to 8.8-9.2 krpm. That said, I don't believe the cams choke your engine. I agree with you, it must be something else. If you don't mind to share please answer the following questions:

• Would you mind to share the flow bench result of the PRB head (IN and EX)?
• Which valve size does it have (IN and EX)?
• Which are the VTC values and when does the engine need to get retarded on VTC to hold torque level?
• What are the dimensional specs for the actual header?
• How does the conjunction and secondary transition looks like (Picture)?
• Did you tune it with KPro or with a standalone solution? Just curious, as I am interested in the VE level. My calculations shows a peak power VE is around 1.05 and at peak torque VE at 1.08, which is below that a 99 mm stroke K-engine is able to put down, once it is of that CR and stock cylinder head ports.

I am looking forward to see that engine releasing it's full potential.

Markus

 

how is the idle with the dc 4 cams?

 

I have stiffer engine mounts and a lightweight flywheel, so Ive always set the idle 950-1050rpm. It feels like stock idle with DC4's.

Im surprised that the cams feels so smooth and nice. And they pull so hard. The sound when I hit Vtec is like a symphony to my ears.
Biggest difference vs. Stock cams is that Vtec is now set at 5500rpm (with stock cams 3900rpm).

 

I think that the current header suits K20 better then K24. You are talking about outer diameters, right? If so, primaries are to small in my opinion, and so are the secondaries. 48mm to 50mm primaries, 54mm secondaries and 60-63mm Merge is what I would use, but the rest of the exhaust should be at least 70mm or more. If you can't make the secondaries bigger, make them longer.

A friend of mine had the same problem lately on his 1600cc engine with 41mm secondaries chocking the engine after 7000 rpm - torque dropping like a stone thrown from a cliff. Should be at least 45mm, or preferably, 48mm for a 1600cc "race like" engine.

 

I found out why the power is dropping like a rock after 7000rpm!!!:mindboom:
I found that the ThrottlePlate was closing after 7000rpm.



So I asked hondata about it:

"User avatarHondata
Site Admin
Re: Stock TB is closing after 7000rpm
Report this post Quote
Post Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:31 pm

You're going too fast - it is a speed limiter which starts at about 220 kph and closes the throttle to limit to 240 kph. We'll disable it for the next release.
/Hondata"


The problem was 2 seperate speed limiters, the only one Ive found was set at 328kmh, put cant find the otherone... :

"User avatarHondata
Site Admin
Re: Stock TB is closing after 7000rpm
Report this post Quote
Unread post Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:24 am

... there are two speed limiters. One rev limits, the other closed the throttle body.
/Hondata"

 

Wow, never heard of that before.

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Are you doing dyno pulls in 5th gear? Can't see doing 220kph in 4th or you must have some really long gearbox.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

 

Yes, 5th gear. It gives me more acuurate digits in the log. 4th gear takes a little to short time to make the tune perfect.

 

Do you incorparate into the dyno power calculation process the increase in wheel diameter because of centrifugal forces? I do it for example for my virtual dyno measurement on street, but it is a model which corrects VSS and engine speed correlation, no measurement! Centrifugal force also increases with power of two of wheel speed. The enlengthening of the diameter is significant, cheating you a higher engine speed increase and a too big power curve at the high end. More accurate would be lowering the wheel speed! That what I mean with accuracy at 5th gear and beyond declines significantly.

All of course if you tune on the roller dyno. Axis dyno is not relevant in that.