Today tested the injectors four bar pressure.
All worked fine.
Next step is that check
the connectors of injectors,cables, etc
I know several cases with bad connectors contacts.

What else

 

What else

Please check the following, to investigate the basis of above #108:

• oil squitter position and spray pattern
• a picture of the damaged piston and a healthy one: top, skirt, bottom and from ring land
• we need also picture from liners: good one and the 2nd one...I didn't see there a hone structure anymore
• do you have pictures of the hone before the installation?

Markus

 

What is the piston to cylinder clearance? Even your healthy piston looks horrible.

 

Interesting case, but...


AWOC thanks for chiming in with that direction, it was also my first thought when I saw those pictures, but if K20actr.J is...

...sure the problem was from lean a/f/r only 2nd cylinder...something didnt worked wright and has to be with lean gas...Generally machine shop doing good job...

it is a bit time consuming to follow that direction with further analysis .

Of course there are some indicators for AWOC's direction:

• no melting on the edges of the piston fireland and crown area
• only piston skirt shows significant wear
• both sides of piston are weared, pressure and counter pressure side -> has nothing to do with the low R/S ratio
• 2nd cylinder liner wall don't show any hone structure anymore

For me, lean combustion could have contributed maybe a little part, but there seems to be a systematically mismatch of liner or piston cooling for the choosen piston to wall clearance.

Systematically could be:
The expansion coefficient ratio of steel to alu is about 11/23, with stock liners it is a little better as the thin steel inlay get's under mechanically tension too due to the alu liner basis...in fact the heat conductivity coefficient ratio of steel to alu is about 50/235, but the liner wall thickness of the DART MID at 89 mm is only 3.76 mm (0.148"). DART speaks of cooler wall surface, I would agree with the above in mind. The question for would be, did the machine workshop integrate that in their piston clearance goal?

Something which I also don't get clarified for me, how does the oiling and cooling of the piston be organized once the oil squirters are deactivated? Maybe a noob question and the race engine builder scene is used to feed the tribolgic partners (liner, rings, piston skirt) by the oil fogging due to rotation speed of crank rod and piston, but me not. Could be those engines I am used has a bit different purpose ...but I would really appreciate if someone could explain me how race engines (NA only?) are oiled at liner-ring-piston-tribology from very low engine speeds of a DD up to race load and speeds, like in this specific application? I can see the pro's of the squirter deactivation (lighter piston)...

BTW, a missing liner hone structure will increase the oil consumption, as all oil, which get's in fireland at BDC when the ring tension is lowest, will be burned after compression stroke...no chance to store it into the hone structure.

 

What else comes my way concerning p2w-clearance with Darton MID:

Darton manual: "We recommend piston skirts be coated with a polymer coating, and piston tops with ceramic. Due to the acute rod angles at the bottom of the stroke with stroker cranks, pistons’ wall thrust is increased sub* stantially, which requires generous chamfers at bore bottom and piston skirt coating to assure no scuffing and galling. Both coatings may allow the pistons to be fitted with less piston to wall clearance, which is desirable in terms of noise reduction and oil consumption on street driven vehicles. “Polydyne” and “Swain” are two well-known firms who can apply these coatings reliably.
"

Seems to be nothing special about different p2w-clearance. Did you do the break in according there recommendations (s. http://www.darton-international.com/tech_ctr.html) with a non-synthetic oil for better break in?

Just curious about it, as my next project will be based on a sleeved engine.

Markus

 

At this point to summarize the following data:


1) melted piston skirt.
Small melt, needs micrometer to see that

2) The piston on top has not marks from knock
3) Perimeter of piston side of exhaust theres a hitting. This hitting is from
deform of piston and touched piston the head
Very small, has not done damage to the head.
The rings of piston no any issue (brokes etc)
That mean all journals was ok.
From bud journals create broken grooves etc..
4) The exhaust didnt flowed fumes or waters.
5) The pressure in the other three cylinders was normal.
The other three pistons meazured and no any issue.(rings,wrist pins etc)
6) The level of water always was ok.
Never had water to oil or oil in water tank
7)head gaskaet was ok.
8)I had oil consumption 500ml on 1000km.
9)I did the order to ipg to make the coats cp.
They forggot that and told me that when readed better the order when opened the cp box
the lead time to sent again the piston for coats to cp was 4 week as they said me.

To have the piston sooner they sent the piston to other manufacturer...
The michine shop told me that
skirt piston surface was not smooth but tough.
In combination with the low r/s ratio probably lost anti friction coat of skirt.

for example cp,cosworth,honda makes smoother coats...

But this issue has not to do with melt of piston.
I think believe that friction,wear makes Lines and surfaces.

 

Back to my old project k22.
-87mm cp 12.5 cr
-inlinepro k22 rods
-f22c crank.
4-2-1 header.
-3.5" custom cai
-Hks filter 200mm
3" exhaust
-ported rbc
-70mm t/b

The difference from older 2157 retup is 5.1 f/d now and 0.8mm
cosworth head gasket.
Static cr 12.97.
Head prb-1 stock
Engine break in for the monent.
200km

 

you looking to make more power?

 

After from damage of my k23 the cheapest solution was k22.
Ι had everything.
Just bought this head gasket and New head k20a2 (never had milled)to reduce the compression from 13.32 to 12.97

This setup had love it in past.
We fit oil squirters and baffle plate in oil pan

 

...Just bought this head gasket and New head k20a2 (never had milled)to reduce the compression from 13.32 to 12.97

Do you stick with the Prayo stage 3 or go back to the TODA A3 cams?

It is good to hear about the project progress...thanks .

Markus

 

After from damage of my k23 the cheapest solution was k22.
Ι had everything.
Just bought this head gasket and New head k20a2 (never had milled)to reduce the compression from 13.32 to 12.97.in past i love this setup

We fit oil squirters and baffle plate in oil pan

Back again 4-2-1 from 4-1
4 sockets for wideband each primary..

 

...New head k20a2 (never had milled)...

Are you going to port the head? And will you stick with 35.5 mm IN valves? Just curious about the situation of V2V with Prayoonto stage 3 cams (issue free or not)?

I would appreciate your answers.

Markus

 

Prayoonto 3 sold.
for this setup toda a3 are enough for that which go to do.
Pr3 needs something better than
-those cc
-100 ron
-cr

Of course if had them will tested again. higher would be better,but 5-6 hp more dont tell me anything.a3 are better midrange for that gas,cc,cr

Head prb do not need something.stock oem with good mods easily can make 280whp.(~315 hp)

on the same dyno i have make 297.5hp.before 5 days here had pull k25.full ported head with flat valves +valvejob.
Everywhere +3 Nm torque of course from more cc
But pick power had the same power. (296.8hp) with more aggressive cams than mine (ips k2)

My k23 with 89mm custom cp 12.5 cr gluyed with pr3.tested 50 vtc and no any issue vtv (35.5 supertech)& ptv. But after 33 vtc didn't made something more powerfull dyno and street..

With stock cp sc71422xa and this crank in k20 block pr3 maybe has issue.i didnt try that. Maybe pr2 is better for k22 now than pr3.

 

Prayoonto 3 sold.

Thanks for the info :up:

...for this setup toda a3 are enough for that...a3 are better midrange for that gas,cc,cr...

Yes! Their midrange where more continous (smoother VTEC transition) with that setup. The troque curve looks like a blast for a DD and hot street application .

Head prb do not need something.stock oem with good mods easily can make 280whp.(~315 hp)

Ok. I will let port the head for my 86.5x86 bottom end. At the moment I am not clear about the issues of having 36 mm intake valves, I have planned. Issues like V2V contact, as I will install aggressive opening and closing ramps combined with short durations at rated lift (1.27 mm). I am not sure if deepening the valve seat (back cut to increase VTC range) and loosing CR out of that will give the better compromise as having 35 mm IN valves with better midrange but loosing some Nm in the high end. Simulations says about up to 5-6 Nm lost and win, like a pair of scales situation .

...on the same dyno i have make 297.5hp.before 5 days here had pull k25.full ported head with flat valves +valvejob.
Everywhere +3 Nm torque of course from more cc
But pick power had the same power. (296.8hp) with more aggressive cams than mine (ips k2)

That's a good comparison for an efficient build and one which need some work :up:. May the IPS K2 are too small for that build :wink:...anyway only +3 Nm more over the rev band with a 300 ccm more displacement and better flow properties could mean there is still some work to do...just guessing :wink:!

My k23 with 89mm custom cp 12.5 cr gluyed with pr3.tested 50 vtc and no any issue vtv (35.5 supertech)& ptv. But after 33 vtc didn't made something more powerfull dyno and street...

Many thanks! My engine will be clayed anyway, I just wanted to see if it is completely nonsense going with 36 mm valves...but it seems to be it depends on the setup (here cams) and according to your result there is a light on that route.

With stock cp sc71422xa and this crank in k20 block pr3 maybe has issue.i didnt try that. Maybe pr2 is better for k22 now than pr3.

Those IN cams are around 263 °ca@0.05" valve duration which is a pretty long duration for a 90.7 stroke with stock head, which have according your dyno result it's verification in the 1.0 krpm to higher engine speeds shifted VE peak. You can see intake flow get easily cramped by the stock IN port shortly beyond it's peak VE...this cam would like better port flow at intake to get rid of the cramped situation at higher revs within that setup. So I would agree with you, Prayoonto 2 could be the better fitting one...just the question if those are better than TODA A3...I would guess from the Prayoonto stage 3 result no, they are not.

Markus

 

Hi K20actr.J, how is it going? Any update...would appreciate to read more about the rebuild.

Markus

 

Hi lotus all good.
Engine has 1000 break in.
Some time will go dyno and street fine tuning.

For the history here is the facking failure which destroyed my k23 project

Bud contact of connectors..2nd cylinder

Now we have cut connectors and glue the wires

 

Hi lotus all good...Engine has 1000 break in...Some time will go dyno and street fine tuning.

That are good news ...I am looking forward to see the engine running and seeing the dyno results :up:

For the history here is the facking failure which destroyed my k23 project...Bud contact of connectors...Now we have cut connectors and glue the wires

Thanks for sharing your investigation work :up:. That's a further engine destroyed just by injector system failure...that's a pitty. Was there a short circuit or just a loosen contact? I can't see it in the pictures...

I am more and more motivated to by a new harness instead of using the old one...what do you think about that?

Markus

 

Loosen contact.The adapter was plugged but the plugs not make correct contact.I know 3 cases with same issue.
Gays understood that by first time because at idle worked engine three cylinder.. like damaged coil,if have you saw that can understand what i mean.

Unfortunately my car at idle worked fine and high revs injector stop sprayed gas..

Aftermarket connectors needs big attention

 

Loosen contact.The adapter was plugged but the plugs not make correct contact.I know 3 cases with same issue...Gays understood that by first time because at idle worked engine three cylinder.. like damaged coil,if have you saw that can understand what i mean...Unfortunately my car at idle worked fine and high revs injector stop sprayed gas...Aftermarket connectors needs big attention

That's pretty difficult to sense with one wideband probe, as the other cylinders could be there easily enriched to compensate for a correct global lamba-value of e.g. 0.92 in case of consitant behavior of that injector with kind of loosen contact wiring.

BTW, do you know the price of a new OEM K20A2 engine harness? Aftermarket engine harness are available in different quality standards from 500-1,200 €, where you get a used OEM harness for less than 250 €. Mine (a braid for the wideband) is just 20.000 km and did loosen contact due to brocken wires/braids.

I would, depending on price, prefer a new OEM harness, but the RDX or any aftermarket connectors my have their own connector standard, needing adapter harnesses and connectors :scared:. Best route to go?

Anyway, good to hear you found the issue, about we did a lot of speculation .

 

Tested k22 87x90.7
Only 159cc than stock 1998 k20 block and the torque goes 27nm.

I think this setup finished.
The only part maby want replace are toda A3.

Those cams midrange are awesome.pulls like a train my 1080kg ep3.For track is the best choice but for road race most important what they doing 7000-9500.
On those rpm just engine revving and stop to pull strong.
That exactly saw the dyno.
The line straightens very early for this engine which speed 9500.
For 86x86 forged 12.5cr A3 makes good power up 9100rpm with good power low-mid-high revs but in my case with more cc work only and preaty good low and midle range.

That see on the road and dyno
292hp/27nm

I use oil jet and day of dyno a/c belt,no new spark plugs.These cost some hp maby touched 295-298hp.

I am sure needs other cams with longer duration to make more power at high range.

I purchase new cams and when have a news inform

Full weight 1300kg with me
https://youtu.be/E3uDTe6Vbk0

1080kg.(1180 with me)
https://youtu.be/udwhyq_Nahw

 

Tested k22 87x90.7...the torque goes 27nm...

A really impressing torque line HP :up:...this is 15.7 bar of BMEP@6.0 krpm, which is pretty good for NA engine...like peak values of a NA Formula 1 engine!

For 86x86 forged 12.5cr A3 makes good power up 9100rpm with good power low-mid-high revs but in my case with more cc work only and preaty good low and midle range.

Yes, the 90.7 mm stroke engine has a better breathing efficiency and offers better intertia ramming compared to the 86 mm strok engine. The higher air velocities press that air spring in the chamber much longer, so that this stroke can handle longer duration more easily.

Would you mill the intake port and work the valve seat and throat for these (7.0-9.0 krpm) engine speeds you are aiming for? I would assume for the mentioned engine speed range further torque increase, due to bit lowering max velocity in the port causing less restrictions.

I purchase new cams and when have a news inform...

:wowzers:

Full weight 1300kg with me...1180 with me

Wow, about two seconds difference from 60-200 km/h...how much power would be necessary to compensate the weight reduction? I will ask my dynamic chassis simulation with your engine torque line and if I remember right, you are using a 5.06 final drive ratio. Am I right?

I love that engine sound in the video ! I am very curious about the next cam test, HP!

Markus

 

Thanks Markus.
In past if i didn't try pr3 would had the idea now that with 100 ron gas and those cc my engine has make the best power.
i dont like to touch the head inside.i have my old head with 35.5mm supertech oly intake side.if see with new cams no so good results of course will test and this head.
Theoretical when fit more aggressive cams stay with stock head to loose no so much VE low mid for small engine like k22.


K23 full weight were faster 1.5sec than k22 1085kg.
Ok.this setup had 100 more cc but compensates k23 with no finaly good header and lower compression.but had better cams 7-9500.

One other point yes 6.052 f/d gives faster engine speed. this dyno gives lower numbers with sorter fin.drive.

In past with 4.389 f.d and A3 i had on first k22 310hp!but that dmt mean something on curves..engine want more duration cam

 

...i dont like to touch the head inside.i have my old head with 35.5mm supertech oly intake side.if see with new cams no so good results of course will test and this head.

Yeah, head porting is a risk, once the porter cut too much or in a non-proper way the flow will loose flow velocity, respectively will get disturbed. But what would you think if the following torque lines

are from a CR 12.5:1 86x86 short block (blue is stock RSP head, red is ported RSP head). I don't know if it is true or just marketing, but my simulation shows same character change once giving the ports the following flow properties

(ported vs stock for both, intake and outtake) and assuming the intake port is widened by 1 mm at inlet and tapers to zero down to throat. BTW, those guys from ATP in Singapor know what they do...not sure if they do it external or themselves, cutting the head without flow loss in the low lift area but gains up to can be called a quite good job

...engine want more duration cam

You for sure !

 

Read the entire thread. Love it.

 

Thanks Ba82Ep3 .

Here friendly battle seat leon 280hp and more torque than me.
https://youtu.be/DHipXMpVpA8

https://youtu.be/KnWXaUjvsRU

 

Replaced toda a3 for prayoonto 4

Soon on the dyno

 

Replaced toda a3 for prayoonto 4...Soon on the dyno

I am looking forward to see their performance of those really biiiiiig lobes :wow:...I hope for you they will performe better than my assumption I email'd you.

Godspeed for your dyno session, man!

Markus

 

nice!

 

Replaced ported RBC (330CFM) for ported RRC (345CFM)
We saw from stock RRC 313 CFM (28'' water pressure)

Soon dyno
κ22 ported rbc + toda A3 VS k22 ported rrc + pr4

 

Replaced ported RBC (330CFM) for ported RRC (345CFM)...We saw from stock RRC 313 CFM (28'' water pressure)

Nice Information!

Soon dynoκ22 ported rbc + toda A3 VS k22 ported rrc + pr4

Looking forward to it.

Markus

 

Back again.
The project is not yet complete
Test some parts..(rrc & pr3)
https://youtu.be/Oh4mtSKkl3g

 

Οne video acceleraton 40-220km/h

Impressive K20actr.J, just 18 s for it. It pulls strong, even between 7.5 and 9.5 krpm, just with the stock PRB cylinder head :up:.

I am really curious about the RRC setup you may try next! Looking forward to see it

Markus

 

Yes,stock head.
New parts Markus are ported rrc and finally prayoonto stage 3
Here full weight with me 1340kg.
https://youtu.be/YG75tTip-ro

 

...New parts Markus are ported rrc and finally prayoonto stage 3

Is the engine in the new clothes or engine setup already fully tuned? I would be interested in the difference, as both, the ported RRC IM and the Prayo3 cam has a great high end VE capability.

A nice K20actr.J typical video . I was sad for the engine once you did hit the rev limiter at that engine speed...the valvetrain, especially the timing chain will propably dance.

A torque line comparison of TODA A3-RBC IM vs Prayo3-RRC IM would be nice, man.

Markus

 

Toda make more torque midrage!!
Behind dynograph saw 27nm!impressive for only 2150 engine and stock port head.

Midrage feeling now is no so good especially 5200-5800 but 6000-9500 engine revving faster.. figures gives ~ 1sec. faster pr3 rrc than A3 rbc 60-220 roll.
I think this difference is bigger because old setup had measured winter 15 degree celsius atmosphere and now the weather here is hot 38-30.

When have the dynographs from new setup upload

 

Yes, weather conditions definitly impacts the combustion and VE conditions.

When have the dynographs from new setup upload

Great .

 

Time for dyno.

Apr. 270whp.
304hp and 26.5kg torque.

 

Time for dyno...Apr. 270whp...304hp and 26.5kg torque.

Not bad, not bad . Is it still the 86x90.7 engine with the stock head and the Prayo S3?

Anyway, this is a great step ahead for your application!

Markus

 

87x90.7mm Markus.
Broke the limit of 300hp.
With new header,intake engine wanted more advance!!
Tried some combinations with vtc but didn't changed enything

 

87x90.7mm Markus.

Thanks .

Broke the limit of 300hp.

Yes man ! Congrats!

With new header,intake engine wanted more advance!!

Do you mean advancing ignition timing or advancing VTC? If the first, this means your scavenging efficiency did increase (= lower residual exhaust gas content) the second would mean, the pressure drop over the engine did increase, which means the engine make significant more VE. Normally both come together...so I am curious what you did mean.

Markus

 

If i remember correct both but no so much from vtc..
After from 33vtc power dropped.
But the range vtec-9300 wanted bigger vtc (1-2 point) not something crazy.


Parts changes gave lean gas.
From 12.5 to 13.2.
Tried few times different Vtec point.
Engine cc with those new parts like 6.500rpm vtec point..

 

If i remember correct both but no so much from vtc..After from 33vtc power dropped.But the range vtec-9300 wanted bigger vtc (1-2 point) not something crazy.

Thanks man, good to know. So the most of it came through scavenging efficiency and a bit higher VE. Seems to be the high end VE did need some better flowing intake, but I guess the most came from the header length adjustment you did. As it plays, in that way you did change it, a significant role in that engine speed area...like McCarthy did show it several times...also my engine simulation shows a significant increase beyond 7 krpm of it.

Parts changes gave lean gas...From 12.5 to 13.2.

Best approval for the higher VE .

Tried few times different Vtec point...Engine cc with those new parts like 6.500rpm vtec point..

The Pray S3 have really huge high speed lobes...giving a high VTEC point, but also seems to fit quite nicely to your actual setup. This is really a big step ahead for your application man! Very good !

Markus

 

Here is the dynograph between:
Toda A3,Ported Rbc 4-2-1 header(292Cv/27Nm) VS Prayoonto cams,Ported Rrc custom header..(304Cv/26.5Nm)

All other mods the same.
k20block
F22 crank
Inlinepro rods
87mm pistons
3" exhaust
3"cai
Stock Port head.
13:1 compression



Also tested 3" vs 3.5" cai.
Didn't saw any different.Same exactly torque,hp low middle high.
Probably 3.5" wants more cc than k22

 

Here is the dynograph between:
Toda A3,Ported Rbc 4-2-1 header(292Cv/27Nm) VS Prayoonto cams,Ported Rrc custom header..(304Cv/26.5Nm)

That's really cracy man, beside the expectable high end win, just by different H, IM mod and Pray S3 cams, I really wonder about the additional up to 15 Nm downlow in low speed cam with the last setup. Seems to be the low speed cam does have a significant higher duration as the TODA A3. Does the Pray S3 setup has a higher idle speed or same but less idle quality?

Also tested 3" vs 3.5" cai.
Didn't saw any different.Same exactly torque,hp low middle high.
Probably 3.5" wants more cc than k22

All testing with the 70 mm TB?

Nice update man! This was great information, thanks for it!

Markus