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Discussion starter · #61 · (Edited)
K23 project

When came the pistons one wrist pin had wrong lenght.I spoke with ipg on 29 jun and they told me that will do everything to sent me the correct wrist pin. Now we have 15 september.My engine is open 47 days and we await from ipg the pin.
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Before opening the engine we had done a trial with other cp pins but inferior (thinner wall thiknes) to see that everything works correctly.

Necessarily now the project has been frozen (47 days)and we look how much time it will take to send us the correct wrist pin ipg
 
#67 ·
K20actr.J said:
I got in contact with ipg, not via this site.
Click to expand...
Ok, I just thought of going different ways to Rome :D. Your way of keeping one way is more Gentlemen like...but it would also be Gentleman like of IPG to inform you about the delivery date.

Anyway, I am excited to see your sleeved engine new strenghtened back in the game :D
 
Discussion starter · #68 · (Edited)
Re: K23 project

LotusElise said:
Anyway, I am excited to see your sleeved engine new strenghtened back in the game :D
Click to expand...
correct
What you write is more important than other issues.
From now on I must be more careful

Tied the engine again with the thinner pins (wall thickness )
cp informed me that with those pins i can do my work with no any issue.
(the estimate power per cylider 75hp)But the best choice was with fatter pins

Now the big headache is the rev limit.

remind:

-k20 block
-136.5mm rod lenght
-30mm piston pin height
-90.7mm s2000 crank
-rod/stroke ratio 1.50:1
 
#69 ·
K20actr.J said:
Now the big headache is the rev limit.

remind:

-k20 block
-136.5mm rod lenght
-30mm piston pin height
-90.7mm s2000 crank
-rod/stroke ratio 1.50:1
Click to expand...
As far as maximum rpm goes that's determined more by mean piston speed than anything else, given that you're not building engines with compromised crank integrity. I limit my endurance road racing engines to 5,400 ft/min mean piston speed using the best 3/8" rod bolts and the strongest rods I can buy. Using those guidelines they'll last pretty much forever. So with an 86mm stroke that limits the engine to 9,500 rpm, a 90.7mm stroke engine is limited to 9,000 rpm, a 99mm stroke engine is limited to 8,300 rpm, and a 103mm stroke engine would be limited to 7,950 rpm. To go beyond that, if the rods are wide enough (F20C size journal), I use 7/16" rod bolts, and that allows the piston speed to be 5,700 ft/min. So the 86mm stroke engine can now rev to 10,100, the 90.7mm stroke engine can rev to 9,500, the 99mm stroke engine can go to 8,700, and at 103mm you'd be safe at 8,400. I hope this helps you decision.
 
Discussion starter · #70 · (Edited)
Re: K23 project

Thanks for helpful answer jaydee. I appreciate your practically experience about this case.


My rods width has design for f20 rod bearings and the engine running with oem honda f20 coloured bearings. The rod bolts are 7/16" arp 2000 series. Always use torco sr5R 5w30 (with ~200ml.motorkote and torco zinc) The estimate number of my inlinepro rods is 700+ whp.Before years had come in contact with carillo and gunningham and asked about the weight of custom rods for my setup. They answer me the same weight as inlinepro. I took the decision to buy the shelf "ready" inlìnepro rods. For 2 years engine was running 9300rpm with 87mm piston without any issue. Now the different in block is 89mm.pistons with darton sleeves and thinking to go 9500rpm always with stock k20 oil pump.

I dont believe to pick power with rbc over 8800-8900rpm but all we know that higher shifting mean higher rev drop mean more hp range and is something whitch has a big value when the power dont drop very much from pick hp rpm to rev limiter
 
#71 ·
I had a 2002 USDM EP3. 160HP.....lol

Ep3 is Honda's last hatchback style and handle = to DC5.

I found peace when I swapped for a SCk24.

Then I stated dropping weight down to 2660 with driver with fuel 2700 est.

Parts Removed or swapped out and Parts added

-Motegi tracklite 15" (11lbs each) forged wheels
-Spare Tire & Jack
-Sound DeadN' Material & some under body spray
-Rear Seats & Brackets & Hardware
-Rear Seat Belt Brackets & Hardware
-Carpet/Interior under front seats back
- Air Bag System (70lbs)
- Racing Seats vs. OEM Seats
-RH & Race Exhaust Cat removal vs. OEM setup header/cat
-Tein vs OEM
- Type R Flywheel vs. K20a3 flywheel
- JRSC ADD 40lbs at least
-ADD 15lbs for rear strut bar & C-Pillar Bars
-ADD 5lbs Al 4pt Harness Bar
-ADD 200lbs Driver
-ADD 20lbs fuel

With Tein basics, weight loss, and track prepped chassis - I was using it for road racing with great handling from a entry level coilover.

If you decide to start dropping weight for a hobby the EP3 gets better and better.

-Sunroof removal = 30lbs.
-Custom Al bumpers = starting at 25lbs and up loss
-Sterio removal and speakers = 22lbs
-15lbs at each door
-CF Hood



Hope this is useful.
 
#73 ·
K20actr.J said:
Now the big headache is the rev limit.
Click to expand...
Where will be peak power? Just curious for the calculation of rod bolt size, rod and piston pin dimensions :D

K20actr.J said:
The rod bolts are 7/16" arp 2000 series.
Click to expand...
According G. Nieman "Maschinenelemente" (engl. version: ISBN 0-387-06809-0) calculation process, the bolt specification data of ARP, a piston and rod weight of 330 g respectively 440 g and the from your suggested engine speed limit of 9.5 krpm you still have a safety against rupture of 2.4. You would even have it using 3/8" bolts (ARP 2000 spec, BTW wouldn't use ARP 8740 spec with much lower cycle fatique life), where it is 1.7 and also yield point isn't reached (about 200 N/mm² distance to max. yield tensile). The ARP 2000 spec'ed rod bolt's aren't the problem at 9.5 krpm, depending on your replay to my weight assumptions.

My concerns are different...
K20actr.J said:
...inlinepro rods is 700+ whp.
Click to expand...
...as power rating only partly have coherences, due to power = torque * engine speed, with the real load on the roads, the piston pin and the piston bore. If you go with about 37.5 bar BMEP TC setup you will reach that limit at 8 krpm, for a 34 bar BMEP setup at 9 krpm...

...problem is the combination of gas force and inertia force interacte and giving the rod a tensil stess (elongation, contration). So it is clear the equivaltent stress of the connecting rod has something to do with gas force due to combustion (BMEP) and engine speed (elongation at suction cycle = small negative force but huge inertia force, we talking about 30 g difference in piston weight means about +0.5 tons load difference per rod at 9.5 krpm!).

So, not knowing where your rods, piston pin and piston stays with the old setup concerning load makes it difficult giving a recommendation. But for some reason I would keep or reduce redline without knowing more.

What is needed:
  • piston weight (old and new)
  • piston pin weight (old and new)
  • rod weight
  • bearing width and bore of piston pin (old and new)
  • cross section of the three critical areas of the rod (below pin bore, pin bore at 3 and 9 o'clock and big bore at 11 or 1 o'clock)
With that further investigation would be possible.

Markus
 
#75 ·
jaydee said:
...limit my endurance road racing engines to 5,400 ft/min mean piston speed using the best 3/8" rod bolts and the strongest rods I can buy.
Click to expand...
Good experience for validation dimensioning procedure, jaydee :up: :D...
jaydee said:
...7/16" rod bolts, and that allows the piston speed to be 5,700 ft/min. So the 86mm stroke engine can now rev to 10,100, the 90.7mm stroke engine can rev to 9,500, the 99mm stroke engine can go to 8,700, and at 103mm you'd be safe at 8,400. I hope this helps you decision.
Click to expand...
Dimensioning of rod bolt's can't be related on good conscience on mean piston speed when we get to material limits, as Newton told us in his 2nd law Force = mass * acceleration and within different R/S ratio's we get different mean piston speeds for the same maxium acceleration of the piston, which is the key parameter for rod bolt dimensioning among mass:
  • 86.0 mm crank, 26.7 m/s (5294 ft/min)
  • 90.7 mm crank, 27.2 m/s (5351 ft/min)
  • 99.0 mm crank, 28.4 m/s (5585 ft/min)
All crank examples have the same maximum tensil stress in the rod bolt's. The situation of rod bolt calculation is get's even more complex once we realize mass is oszillating and rotating.

There are another parameters in the game...just see the following videos:
Building engine in the high end needs both, knowhow from practice and from theory, as both helps to understand why things went wrong and what to do better.

Last but not least, driving profile (DD, endurance race, hill climb race, drag race, ...) all that should be taken into account for dimensioning the engine right. Just asking yourself why SickSilvers_ep3 drag racer is still there, having up to 35 m/s mean piston speed (106 mm crank, 10 krpm) and a CUP engine has "slow" 27 m/s :D...
 
#76 ·
K20actr.J said:
hi man,thanks for ideas :new_slayer:
My ep3 ctr euro R 2003 model full stock was 2654.
The lowest weight I have accomplished is 2336.
With me goes 2557.

The issue is that i cannot low the weight more because it will lose
the streetable character.
Click to expand...
I understand that.

So the UK EP3 was lighter than the USDM EP3. Makes sense the Type R would be lighter as they always are with extra gussets and chassis support.

Did yours come with the same Al lower front control arms in the DC5=R..?
 
Discussion starter · #77 · (Edited)
Re: K23 project

87mm 304 gram (old)
89mm 310 gram (new)
rod weight 580gr.

cpshelf pistons pins (87mm whitch running now):

2.000 length (same both of course)

.120 wall thikness (the only different)

.866 pin diameter (same both of course)

The weight of both pins dont remember exactlly
The different (if i remember aright ) is about 5-7gram. each pin!!! Ι reserve about this diferent


The wall thickness with naked eye is a significant different.

I can mesure if want the weight and wall thikness of costum 89mm pisotns pins


Theoritically pick power will be lower than 8750rpm ( that was 2157cc)
more cc gives lowers picks power.

But practically Îą quess that is no 100% correct when speak (on a new setup) about bigger valves int. new & bigger camshafts...
 
Discussion starter · #79 · (Edited)
Re: K23 project

LotusElise said:
Building engine in the high end needs both, knowhow from practice and from theory, as both helps to understand why things went wrong and what to do better.
Click to expand...
+1 but always if dont try something never will know.
For example have a look f1.
All groups start one season from White paper and at the end of the season revise many things through practice (races)
 
#80 ·
K20actr.J said:
I can mesure if want the weight and wall thikness of costum 89mm pisotns pins
Click to expand...
:up:...would appreciate it for the calculation :D
K20actr.J said:
Theoritically pick power will be lower than 8750rpm ( that was 2157cc) more cc gives lowers picks power.
Click to expand...
Do you use still Toda A3 cams? I would check peak shift within the simulation tool with the 35.5 mm intake valves and the 89 mm bore...relative quantity of answer would be good enough for different redline investigations and come back to you with the overview about the oberservations.
 
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