[Hondelius]

Hey !
Wich EXHAUST camshafts are interchangeable with K20A4, yes A4 its european economy motor for CRV i quess
Mine has unbelieveable wear on EVERY lobe of exhaust camshaft... when i first saw them i was stunned.. must be some bad material when they produced these at 2002 year..

So i quess the question is does K20A3 ex cam fit ? and wich cars use K20A3 and A4 motors, besides CRV. Many thanks !
-------------------

FIRST UPDATE:
For anyone having same problem, i did order this item from Ebay, with OE Number: 14120-PPA-010
It should fit all K20A1/3/4/6 & K24A
Direct Link To Ebay

-------------------

FINAL UPDATE:
I have now installed that Ebay camshaft. It was right one, and working well !

 

[LotusElise]

Sorry to read about the damage. Did you inspect the bearings of the roller rocker and the cam towers too? Do you have an idea what could cause it?

So i quess the question is does K20A3 ex cam fit ?

Mechanically they would fit. Do you have a part number for comparison?

and wich cars use K20A3 and A4 motors, besides CRV

Please see the table here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_K_engine#K20A

 

[Them Witches]

@LotusElise What would cause this? I have three sets of used lost motion spring here at the house. Since I am installing new cams and new valvesprings , I figure it would be a smart thing to order new ones, all (8) cost $52.00. I have seen these things bending, breaking etc. on both forums, thus I am not going with used ones to play it safe. They are not visable when the valve cover is pulled off, the cams & rockers have to come out ot get a visual.

 

[LotusElise]

@LotusElise What would cause this?

This is well developed pitting of a tribolocial surface. Pitting's root cause is decomposition of material in the surface by either chemical mechanism like corrosion attack or mechanical stress like valve bouncing. The range of examples for both is huge. An oil forcing chemical effects like corrosion is possible, lack of oil is possible.

The position of max. intensity, the oil layers location and the roller surface give me the impression of a worn surface plus a chemical attack by e.g. an oil additive and maybe condensed humidity. The exhaust cam wear came across on the ECO versions several time here. Seems they run a proper Hertzian pressure on the lift side as well with an lack of fabrication quality, introduced by wrong oil formulation induced corrosion attack.

E.g. austenitic steel suffer much on chlorine ions, especially if the corrosion protecting chrome oxide layer is deformed and cracked under higher hertzian pressure and chemical attack. A higher content of Molybate and Tungstun in the oil formulation can reduce the chemical corrosion effect as it works out like an inhibitor. Both are not ingredients of every engine oil.

 

[Them Witches]

For those that do not know including myself, here are the meaning of these words:

tribolocial surface

The tribological surface is the result of the surface interacting with the environment. This interaction can take the form of a metal interacting with the environment to form oxides, nitrides, or hydroxides. Interaction with environments other than air can produce different surface films.

Hertzian pressure

Hertzian contact stress refers to the localized stresses that develop as two curved surfaces come in contact and deform slightly under the imposed loads. This amount of deformation is dependent on the modulus of elasticity of the material in contact.

austenitic steel

Austenitic steel is a type of stainless steel that contains austenite. It contains a high percentage of nickel and chromium, enhancing its ability to be formed and welded easily into any shape along with providing great strength and resistance to corrosion.

 

[LotusElise]

I thought of talking about a common basis 🤭. Sorry for that and thanks for clarification of it.

The tribological surface is the result of the surface interacting with the environment. This interaction can take the form of a metal interacting with the environment to form oxides, nitrides, or hydroxides. Interaction with environments other than air can produce different surface films.

I may add the simple definition, coming from the prefix "tri" (lat. for three), there are three partners involved: two solid surfaces and a (separating) fluid in between those two. Tribologic is the science of friction, wear and greasing of friction partners in many kind like understanding the mechanism, forecasting and measuring wear rates and development of greasing fluids and pastes as well as protection layers.

It's a very complex science, especially on its application of a combustion engine. The complexity comes from the fact that it needs overlapping know how of kinematic, material, fluid mechanic, chemistry, thermodynamic. So you need an thermal and fluid engineer, chemist, material engineer and an mechanical engineer. It's very rare to have all in one person and it's even more rare to find one company altogether for the combustion engine. I was nine year in a ICE (internal combustion engine) development of the oldest company of the world producing ICE series for multiple applications: military, rail, marine, industry and commercial vehicles. The Leopard 2 engine is maybe the best known of them in the US. Even there you won't find someone who can combine all these areas as needed. It's always a share of everything in different deep dive qualities. I was one of them who were involved in failure related analyze, but there were specialists for different systems: valvetrain, crank drive and bearing and so on. None of them known everything and especially not the oil companies.

Pitting alone is complex, as the root causes are manifold and need deep dive know how down to chemical reaction basis background. So without any material investigation, e.g. SEM (scanning electrone analysis) where you can analyse the microscopic landscape and EDX (energy disperse X-Ray spectroscopy) the missing or added material content of a pitting structure, it is difficult to see it clearer. So my assumptions above are assumptions and no more.

 

[Hondelius]

For anyone having same problem, i did order this item from Ebay, with OE Number: 14120-PPA-010
It should fit all K20A1/3/4/6 & K24A atleast they stated that in item description. I will update here after install.

 

[Hondelius]

Did you inspect the bearings of the roller rocker and the cam towers too?

No, i didnt inspect roller bearings or anything else, i was just quickly checking timing chain stretch.
Well chain was stretched quite much, but there is no error codes yet, wich is suprising...

Im going to replace chain with new one, and same time exhaust cam. My engine is making quite noises when running, so i hope those two things fixes also noise problems.

Do you have an idea what could cause it?

Yes, previous owner have been driving with realy low oil, and last oil change was like 50 000km ago

 

[LotusElise]

No, i didnt inspect roller bearings or anything else, i was just quickly checking timing chain stretch.

Should be on your list. The pitting comes with additional vibrations which can lead to seizure on the cam bearings.

Well chain was stretched quite much, but there is no error codes yet, wich is suprising...

How much was it elongated?

Yes, previous owner have been driving with realy low oil, and last oil change was like 50 000km ago

Did you see oil pressure warning at the MIL? If it was low enough to interrupt the oil flow, it would be too late for more components then only the cams. In that case journal and main bearings at #4 would my next step to check it out.

Seems to be he thought of a looooooong range oil 🤨? Anyway once oil has very low corrosion inhibitors because of oxidation and wear of oil components may run the mechanism enough intensive for pitting at highly stressed tribological surfaces.

 

[Hondelius]

Did you see oil pressure warning at the MIL? If it was low enough to interrupt the oil flow, it would be too late for more components then only the cams. In that case journal and main bearings at #4 would my next step to check it out.

Oil was barely touching stick, but did not flash yellow oil light (maybe broken). "Red alert" oil light never seen, wich is good thing, so im pretty sure there has been just enought oil to keep engine barely OK Now there is new oil and im taking good care of engine, so lets see if we can still revive this one to new life

 

[LotusElise]

"Red alert" oil light never seen, wich is good thing, so im pretty sure there has been just enought oil to keep engine barely OK

Oil pressure switch sensor alarms at veeeeeeeeeery low 0.5 bar, where oil flow suffers much. Normally bearings would be blamed long time before if oil flux would interrupt frequently. If the engine still runs at idle at same fuel flow and ign. timing, which is pretty sensitive, it would indicate the friction is not increased by non-proper working tribologic.

...so lets see if we can still revive this one to new life

You like playing game 😜. Good luck with your approach.

 

[Them Witches]

I thought of talking about a common basis 🤭. Sorry for that and thanks for clarification of it.

I may add the simple definition, coming from the prefix "tri" (lat. for three), there are three partners involved: two solid surfaces and a (separating) fluid in between those two. Tribologic is the science of friction, wear and greasing of friction partners in many kind like understanding the mechanism, forecasting and measuring wear rates and development of greasing fluids and pastes as well as protection layers.

It's a very complex science, especially on its application of a combustion engine. The complexity comes from the fact that it needs overlapping know how of kinematic, material, fluid mechanic, chemistry, thermodynamic. So you need an thermal and fluid engineer, chemist, material engineer and an mechanical engineer. It's very rare to have all in one person and it's even more rare to find one company altogether for the combustion engine. I was nine year in a ICE (internal combustion engine) development of the oldest company of the world producing ICE series for multiple applications: military, rail, marine, industry and commercial vehicles. The Leopard 2 engine is maybe the best known of them in the US. Even there you won't find someone who can combine all these areas as needed. It's always a share of everything in different deep dive qualities. I was one of them who were involved in failure related analyze, but there were specialists for different systems: valvetrain, crank drive and bearing and so on. None of them known everything and especially not the oil companies.

Pitting alone is complex, as the root causes are manifold and need deep dive know how down to chemical reaction basis background. So without any material investigation, e.g. SEM (scanning electrone analysis) where you can analyse the microscopic landscape and EDX (energy disperse X-Ray spectroscopy) the missing or added material content of a pitting structure, it is difficult to see it clearer. So my assumptions above are assumptions and no more.

I agree with you on the chemical reaction basis. In the industry I worked in we had weld procedures and processes for everything for many reasons. Certain chemicals are harsh to certain metals and will cause welds to crack and deform in three days time of being in service. Now in to relation to car engines like camshafts, the heat, friction etc. will make the process go faster. Thank you for sharing this knowledge with me.

 

[LotusElise]

...he heat, friction etc. will make the process go faster.

...and surface pressure.

 

[josué.cl9]

I have three sets of used lost motion spring here at the house. Since I am installing new cams and new valvesprings , I figure it would be a smart thing to order new ones, all (8) cost $52.00. I have seen these things bending, breaking etc. on both forums, thus I am not going with used ones to play it safe.

Hey man I was gonna ask, have you noticed any difference with the LMAs. As in their stiffness. Me and my brother noticed that K20A2, K24A2 and K20Z3 all have different feels. Do you think LMAs are made different?

This is well developed pitting of a tribolocial surface. Pitting's root cause is decomposition of material in the surface by either chemical mechanism like corrosion attack or mechanical stress like valve bouncing. The range of examples for both is huge. An oil forcing chemical effects like corrosion is possible, lack of oil is possible

@LotusElise could this play a part into changing the frequency of the LMAs making them vary in stiffness??

 

[LotusElise]

@LotusElise could this play a part into changing the frequency of the LMAs making them vary in stiffness??

No, the exhaust side of the K20A4 has no lost motion springs as it has no different cam lobes which would be VTEC switched. It has only one cam lobe on the exhaust side. It's a compromise for lower cost as the benefit of having a secondary lobe on the exhaust cam is not of the value in that engine application, which is emission and low load efficiency.

The ECO concept for the K-series only sees a swirl induced low engine speed improve combustion efficiency. For emission certification cycle this is a miracle, for the daily driving it is quite limited, as VTEC switches already at 2500 rpm for the A4, means if the user don't drive high loaded low speeded, it is not fully utilized and we just speak about a potent 2-Liter engine. We still speak about a competitive power and efficiency level in the 2-Liter non-sport-sedan area. Only e.g. Toyota's Yamaha heads (2ZZ-GE, 107 hp/Liter) and the K-series internal competitor heads of the A2/A (Perf.)/Z1/Z3/Z4 (100-113 hp/Liter) are well better powered.

 

[Them Witches]

Hey man I was gonna ask, have you noticed any difference with the LMAs. As in their stiffness. Me and my brother noticed that K20A2, K24A2 and K20Z3 all have different feels. Do you think LMAs are made different?

They are all the same. For whatever reason the oem parts dealers charge a little more for the Z3. they are all the same part numbers

 

[Hondelius]

FINAL UPDATE:
I have now installed that Ebay camshaft. It was right one, and working well !

 

[LotusElise]

For anyone having same problem, i did order this item from Ebay, with OE Number: 14120-PPA-010

I have now installed that Ebay camshaft. It was right one, and working well !

You mean those you have mentioned above? I would appreciate if you report later how it runs and if the cams are still good after the first 500 km . That would be really great.

Thanks for the edit of the first post. Having all information in there makes it easy for time hunting members .

 

[Hondelius]

You mean those you have mentioned above? I would appreciate if you report later how it runs and if the cams are still good after the first 500 km . That would be really great.

Thanks for the edit of the first post. Having all information in there makes it easy for time hunting members .

Yes i installed that one ebay camshaft i did link in my first post, it was right one, and seems like it fits following : K20A1/3/4/6 according to their site. But atleast fits K20A4 wich is mine.
Yeah i can make check up after some kilometers.