Honda / Acura K20a K24a Engine Forum banner

21 - 37 of 37 Posts

·
Registered
97 civic HX K24a
Joined
·
923 Posts
Thanks Markus,
As I'm "old school" (=mainly carburetors) and not so familiar with Honda, I'm little lost here....
So would this (link below) work for me with suitable wiring set and additional sensors (E85)? Do I need separate MAP sensor?
Hondata KPro 4 / K-Swap ECU Package

So if, then this would be quite reasonable priced option, but does it allow to make boost curve vs. RPM, how many outputs there are for e.g. shift light, etc.?
I don't mind cable driven throttle body, actually prefer that way :)

Ps. for spool I've been planning to do quick spool valve, like this one:
I purchased the very same kpro v4 in a PND ecu and I was very impressed with the quality of what I received for $800. They even bead blast the ecu case so it looks brand new and include a clear cover.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
I would actually need to collect all must have and nice to have features of the future ECU and throw the list out to you experts to give guidance. Like said previously, I'm little old school and might not be up to speed on all the features and what actually is out there in the market...
 

·
Registered
97 civic HX K24a
Joined
·
923 Posts
I would actually need to collect all must have and nice to have features of the future ECU and throw the list out to you experts to give guidance. Like said previously, I'm little old school and might not be up to speed on all the features and what actually is out there in the market...
@LotusElise is the only expert here 😅 I’ve just been around the Hondas for a good while.
 

·
Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
Joined
·
6,979 Posts
I would actually need to collect all must have and nice to have features of the future ECU and throw the list out to you experts to give guidance. Like said previously, I'm little old school and might not be up to speed on all the features and what actually is out there in the market...
I would recommend you to go to e.g. the MoTec website, they have a nice guide for the ECU specification, just to get an idea what is typical in the products incl. and what is optional. Also the hardware and software feature list of AEM, Haltech, MaxxECU, EMUBlack, ... are a good start point to sum it up right. For that I would check out what the stock harness/ECU pins are fore. A good comparison list you can find at the AEM website (AEM Infinity vs OEM ECU): Honda - 2001-2005 K Series Supported Application (aemelectronics.com)

@LotusElise is the only expert here 😅 I’ve just been around the Hondas for a good while.
I hope not 🤔. There are a few guys here tuning their own engine in a step by step approach.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
326 Posts
Do you have a budget limit?
You stated some boost limits. All OK
You stated some features you want. Also all OK.

Doctronic plus Flexfuel sensor would do that. They had a sale last xmas for like €400 pro the ProECU package if you send in your ECU.
I have actually a Doctronic ECU with a Flex fuel sensor / setup in my Elise K20 conversion....

Now Motec can do anything you want. They offer all the bells and whistles you ever want, e.g. drive by wire throttle body based boost control with clutch line pressure derived launch control.
If you are willing to throw €5k or more, they charge based on features, into your ECU config with Motec, you won't regret it. Syveecs, Link etc. also make very modern and very capable ECUs with real time single revolution individual cylinder knock control etc. But it all comes with a price. Custom or adapter engine loom, lot's of complicated custom ECU set-up, little community support etc. Again, if you pay a professional a couple of Gs to do it or you spend LOADs of time, it will be awesome.

Many end up with Motec once they run out of options on modern cars such as the V6 Lotus Exige or say turbocharged Lambos. But once you sink €30k into an engine, you are also willing to spend an other 5-10k on your engine control.

But for what you described, a Hondata V4 or a Doctronic ProK ECU will be perfectly fine with OEM like driving, cold start and idling behaviour. If you add a wieeband controller, for Hondata v4, you can even use the digital output of a PLX wideband, the other mainly analog, you can pretty much map it yourself. Mike at Japan sports in Oscherleben can also map reasonably well.
If you approach this yourself with some support from here given your stated ECU based mapping experience level, I strongly recommend you start with the lowest boost you can get your config to run at until you got this to run well. Blow it to 15PSI right away on a base map and you very likely, more likely than not, blow up your engine within seconds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
There is always a budget limit :) Generally with this amount of mortgage, etc. this should cost as little as possible, however it will cost what it costs, higher costs only means longer timeline.... but Motec is out of the question, that is clear. I would say that I could spend 1k€ to ECU & wiring if needed, above that, would really need to be "talked into" spending more.

I've been thinking the features needed and here start of the list.
Must have:
4 x injectors, low impedance capability
4 x COP
Wideband O2 driver
Knock sensor and control
VTEC control
VTC control
E85 sensor input
Boost control based on RPM and E85 content in fuel
Fuel flow adjusting to E85 content also ignition
2 x programmable output (water methanol injection and shift light)
3 bar MAP up to 2 bar boost. Might need more than 1 bar boost to my target, so 2 bar most likely not sufficient
+ all the normal stuff

Nice to have:
Autotune based on AFR target table and wideband input
Adjustable lower boost for first 2 gears
Closed loop based on WB and dropping to open loop at certain engine load (RPM or boost)
Knock control also by dropping boost level if ignition retard is beyond xx degrees
More digital outputs based on various inputs for whatever demands I might come up later
4 injector outputs more. E85 needs massive injectors (1500 - 2000cc) so potentially staging smaller for normal driving and when duty is above 80%, larger coming in as well
A switch for low power settings (no VTEC & low boost) for my wife to drive the car or in annual inspection
Outputs / potential to connect external display / iPad to show various engine values
Understands all stock sensors = I could save some money not to get all new

This just a quick list from top of my head and I tried not to list things that should be there anyway in any ECU.
 

·
Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
Joined
·
6,979 Posts
Your must have is not included in Hondata KPro V4 or Doctronic as both uses the OEM ECU injector drivers (saturated driver concept), which run high impedance injectors only for more then one run 😉. They would overheat to easy on higher engine speed. The question is, why you want to run low impedance injectors? There is no real single cause to do so beside precision of injection, but this is an overrun advantage of todays high impedance injectors, which are almost on par.

As per list, you need Haltech Elite 1500, AEM Infinity 506, MaxxECU Sport, ECU Master EMU Black. The cheaper version like AEM Infinity 305, Doctronic, KPro V4 are not yours because of your injector specification.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Thanks Markus,
What I've seen is that those larger injectors needed for E85 and ~100hp / cylinder are most low impedance. However, if I find high imp ones, how would be the picture of possible ECUs change?
And when it comes to topics of e.g. MAP, if there isn't 3 bar map originally, but it can be upgraded / changed, that would of course work as well.

And of course I need rev limiter, that was missing from my list, however I would assume that this is naturally part of any system.....
 

·
Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
Joined
·
6,979 Posts
What I've seen is that those larger injectors needed for E85 and ~100hp / cylinder are most low impedance.
There are a mass of high impedance injectors available up to 2000 ccm fuel flow, you can run over 250 hp per injector with that on E85 fuel.

However, if I find high imp ones, how would be the picture of possible ECUs change?
Totally, all the low budget ECU's and also the stock ECU would be again on your list.

And when it comes to topics of e.g. MAP, if there isn't 3 bar map originally, but it can be upgraded / changed, that would of course work as well.
Yes, for most of the ECU's this is just a specification table about signal voltage to pressure relation. .

And of course I need rev limiter, that was missing from my list, however I would assume that this is naturally part of any system.....
Yes, it is a basic stuff feature.
 

·
Registered
97 civic HX K24a
Joined
·
923 Posts
I would recommend you to go to e.g. the MoTec website, they have a nice guide for the ECU specification, just to get an idea what is typical in the products incl. and what is optional. Also the hardware and software feature list of AEM, Haltech, MaxxECU, EMUBlack, ... are a good start point to sum it up right. For that I would check out what the stock harness/ECU pins are fore. A good comparison list you can find at the AEM website (AEM Infinity vs OEM ECU): Honda - 2001-2005 K Series Supported Application (aemelectronics.com)

I hope not 🤔. There are a few guys here tuning their own engine in a step by step approach.
I should have clarified, the only expert between you and myself 😅
 

·
Registered
97 civic HX K24a
Joined
·
923 Posts
After we tuned your car you won't do any other thing after.
Whoever tunes my cars I don’t make a habit of changing the map. I’m no tuner, aside from knowing a few basics to get things started I leave that work to professionals. I do make proper use of the hondata read files tho, there’s a bounty of good information in those.
 

·
Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
Joined
·
6,979 Posts
...I do make proper use of the hondata read files tho, there’s a bounty of good information in those.
You are shortly before becoming more interest in tuning 😉. Reading Hondata help and some of their maps is already part of the tuning preparation process.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
I sent some of my questions to Doctoronic and got a reply within 24h. A good sign. Below my questions and their answers:

Q1. What is the connection plug to the ECU? Is it standard Honda plug? Would the easiest way to get connect be getting engine bay cable loom from a wrecked Honda car? Or do you sell connector with xx m long wires attached for installation to non-Honda car?
A1. It's a original Honda ECU with the original connectors on it. You can use a engine harness of a wrecked car. I.e. Civic EP3.
You have to complete the wiring with a swap-harness. You can buy this at several sources or build yourself one. We can provide the connectors for this.

Q2. Due turbo, control would need to be MAP based. This would only need your MAP sensor and all would work ok after that?
A2. You just need a map sensor which will the right amount of boost. We offer 3 and 4 Bar Map Sensors which fits on the stock place of the intake manifold.

Q3. Wideband O2. Can the box operate WB sensor? Or do I need the sensor and driver? Recommended brands & models?
A3. You need a external Wideband Controller which can be wired to the ECU. At the moment we like the AEM X-Series 30-0300. Good performance for low money. The Zeitronix ZT3 perform well, too. But you can use almost every wideband with 0-5 Volt output.

Q4. How many digital outputs on top of 4 x COP and 4 x Injectors there are? PWM for boost control, but on top of that?
A4. PWM Boost control output, of course. Depending on the ECU model used (PRA, PRB, Auto/Manual) you have more or less in- and outputs available. If you need a specific amount of input or outputs we can modify the ECU to have them. You can have some additional functions like Shiftlight, PWM Waterpump Control, Gauge Control, NOS or Spraybar output etc.

Q5. What about the other inputs? Knock sensor? E85 sensor, etc. how to connect them to the ECU?
A5. As already written before - it depends on the ECU and we can modify it to make it work.
These is a Knock Sensor input, but only for the Stock Honda Knock Sensor. We don't recommend the stock Honda knock control. Especially in a build engine (i guess you'll install forged pistons, stronger valve springs, etc.).
E85/Flexfuel Sensor is possible. Direct connected to the ECU. In some ECU models the modification of the board is necessary, but if you tell us at the order all the function you want, we can prepare the ECU in the way you want.

Q6. Can boost be mapped on RPM AND also based on E85 content? So can I make RPM based boost curve so that with pure gasoline there would be, say, 40% of max boost value on each RPM point and with 100% E85 there would be 100% of the set boost value on each RPM point.
A6. Yes. You have two boost maps each with setting 0% Ethanol and two more with maximum Ethanol content. Depending on the Flex-Fuel Sensor reading the tables will be blended.

Q7. Can the ECU be located in the engine bay, or is it must to have it in the cabin?
A7. The ECU is NOT waterproof and is designed to be installed in the cabine.

Q8. Is there an autotune feature? So that you can fill in the target AFR for each RPM & MAP pressure point and the ECU/software automatically adjusts the injector duty cycle and create your map/tune for you.
A8. No - not a full auto tune, but you can set a target AFR map and the Software will show you the difference between the actual reading and target map in %. You just need to mark the areas and make the changes as you want. This is a big help and makes tuning easy.

Q9. Does the box have closed loop based on WB sensor and can you put in point (RPM and/or MAP) where you drop of and go to open loop pre-determined injection rate
A9. You can have closed loop lambda control with the external wideband, too. As it is a modified OEM ecu, the function of closed loop is limited to Lambda 1 for part load only. You can determine a maximal load to switch off the closed loop control.
 

·
Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
Joined
·
6,979 Posts
I sent some of my questions to Doctoronic and got a reply within 24h. A good sign. Below my questions and their answers:

Q1. What is the connection plug to the ECU? Is it standard Honda plug? Would the easiest way to get connect be getting engine bay cable loom from a wrecked Honda car? Or do you sell connector with xx m long wires attached for installation to non-Honda car?
A1. It's a original Honda ECU with the original connectors on it. You can use a engine harness of a wrecked car. I.e. Civic EP3.
You have to complete the wiring with a swap-harness. You can buy this at several sources or build yourself one. We can provide the connectors for this.

Q2. Due turbo, control would need to be MAP based. This would only need your MAP sensor and all would work ok after that?
A2. You just need a map sensor which will the right amount of boost. We offer 3 and 4 Bar Map Sensors which fits on the stock place of the intake manifold.

Q3. Wideband O2. Can the box operate WB sensor? Or do I need the sensor and driver? Recommended brands & models?
A3. You need a external Wideband Controller which can be wired to the ECU. At the moment we like the AEM X-Series 30-0300. Good performance for low money. The Zeitronix ZT3 perform well, too. But you can use almost every wideband with 0-5 Volt output.

Q4. How many digital outputs on top of 4 x COP and 4 x Injectors there are? PWM for boost control, but on top of that?
A4. PWM Boost control output, of course. Depending on the ECU model used (PRA, PRB, Auto/Manual) you have more or less in- and outputs available. If you need a specific amount of input or outputs we can modify the ECU to have them. You can have some additional functions like Shiftlight, PWM Waterpump Control, Gauge Control, NOS or Spraybar output etc.

Q5. What about the other inputs? Knock sensor? E85 sensor, etc. how to connect them to the ECU?
A5. As already written before - it depends on the ECU and we can modify it to make it work.
These is a Knock Sensor input, but only for the Stock Honda Knock Sensor. We don't recommend the stock Honda knock control. Especially in a build engine (i guess you'll install forged pistons, stronger valve springs, etc.).
E85/Flexfuel Sensor is possible. Direct connected to the ECU. In some ECU models the modification of the board is necessary, but if you tell us at the order all the function you want, we can prepare the ECU in the way you want.

Q6. Can boost be mapped on RPM AND also based on E85 content? So can I make RPM based boost curve so that with pure gasoline there would be, say, 40% of max boost value on each RPM point and with 100% E85 there would be 100% of the set boost value on each RPM point.
A6. Yes. You have two boost maps each with setting 0% Ethanol and two more with maximum Ethanol content. Depending on the Flex-Fuel Sensor reading the tables will be blended.

Q7. Can the ECU be located in the engine bay, or is it must to have it in the cabin?
A7. The ECU is NOT waterproof and is designed to be installed in the cabine.

Q8. Is there an autotune feature? So that you can fill in the target AFR for each RPM & MAP pressure point and the ECU/software automatically adjusts the injector duty cycle and create your map/tune for you.
A8. No - not a full auto tune, but you can set a target AFR map and the Software will show you the difference between the actual reading and target map in %. You just need to mark the areas and make the changes as you want. This is a big help and makes tuning easy.

Q9. Does the box have closed loop based on WB sensor and can you put in point (RPM and/or MAP) where you drop of and go to open loop pre-determined injection rate
A9. You can have closed loop lambda control with the external wideband, too. As it is a modified OEM ecu, the function of closed loop is limited to Lambda 1 for part load only. You can determine a maximal load to switch off the closed loop control.
Thanks for sharing your communication Iiro.t
 
21 - 37 of 37 Posts
Top