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Discussion Starter #1
I have a stock 2008 TSX engine with 87k I'll be swapping into my 1986 BMW e30 (stock G260 trans). I'll be running KMiata's house designed intake manifold, 74mm B-series throttle body, and equal length header. Unsure what direction I'll go for engine management. It's going to be a daily driver, so mostly going for good power and keeping reliability and affordability (relatively speaking!); no turbo, no supercharger.
KMiata's test e30 car uses a K24A2 bottom end, K20Z3 head with stock cams, race header, unknown ECU/management, but puts down 234whp and 190wtq.
If I keep my engine and head/cams/stock 25deg VTC gear, and a tune, will I gain noticeable power (especially midrange, where I want it) if I swap to a 40 degree VTC gear (HPTAutoSport)?
I'm shooting for 220whp and I'll be happy with that. Worth the expense?
 

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it Will make 220 without swapping the vtc gear. If you want more options for timing when tuning then swap
It to the 40 degree wheel and there more than likely is power to be found throughout the band. I have been seeing lately people realizing more power up top on stock k24 with less vtc. Just my .02
 

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How's the build coming along? I wanna do the same to our E30, but there's no way I'd go through all that without going FI as well :D I'm going to assume KMiata and Garagistic are running Kpro V4.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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How's the build coming along? I wanna do the same to our E30, but there's no way I'd go through all that without going FI as well :D I'm going to assume KMiata and Garagistic are running Kpro V4.
Most likely m5james. It is also capable to handle the boost, as well as Doctronic or any other standalone like AEM Infinity or EMS 2, Haltech Elite, MaxxECU, ECUMaster, ...
 

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Discussion Starter #6
The "build" is still in the parts accruing stage. I have nearly everything needed for the swap except the KPro 4 (you were right, m5james). My question is very basic noob bc electrics are sorcery to me.
KMiata (now KPower Industries) says in their Installation Guide pdf that a 2002-2004 RSX ECU must be used in conjunction with the Hondata KPro 4:
"The ECU can be sourced from any 2002-2004 Acura RSX (base or Type S, manual or auto). The engine wiring harness and charge harness must also be sourced from the same vehicle. Alternatively, one of our brand new KPower RWD Engine Swap Harnesses can be used instead of the two OEM harnesses for a cleaner installation."
I went with their custom RWD harness that's plug and play (with the e30 OEM C101 round connector). Since I'm using their custom harness, will any 2002-2004 RSX ECU work for me? (Psh- easiest thing for me to do is ask them!)

I'm also not sure the best place to post this question since it's a custom build, mating the Honda powerplant with the e30 chassis and gauges.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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I went with their custom RWD harness that's plug and play (with the e30 OEM C101 round connector). Since I'm using their custom harness, will any 2002-2004 RSX ECU work for me?
In that case it would be the easiest way to use a Honda PRB ECU and KPro or Doctronic, as everything seems to already in plug and play status. But I have to add the way for an e.g. AEM Infinity 506 to adapt this within a Honda 2002-2004 RSX plug and play harness is the same, just more expensive.

If you run this as an daily the Hondata- or Doctronic-way works ok, for a pure race car it is awful to tune. Transient and anti-knock-setup tuning is a mess, as it has the precision and the sharpness of a tennis racket for cutting a raw meat. There are a lot more disadvantages of those OEM ECU based systems, but they are cheap to buy.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I'll be using it as a daily 99% of the time, LotusElise. Also, I bought a 50deg VTC but will have the tuner limit it to 40deg for safety. I'm more into midrange, anyways.
 

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Electronic limiting of vtc inadequate safety. If the clearances don't support 50* then you need to mechanically limit the vtc gear to your acceptable tolerance
 

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One more question regarding VTC.
I'm planning a K24 swap to a Fiero and it would be boosted with target around 400whp. Starting point would be K24A3 with E85 as fuel and hopefully I don't need to take the head off, just do some "external" mods. Due cost and other reasons the ECU will be megasquirt II, which don't have enough brains to control VTC properly..... so my thinking was to limit the VTC degrees with pin(s) and use it as on - off based on either RPM or MAP. I know that this doesn't offer all the benefits, but it's still better than nothing....
The practical questions:
  • VTC is advance and retard, however with on - off set up, most likely only one direction is possible?
  • What are the pins / cables in the VTC solenoid? How to hook it up? Could I do on - off to both directions? So max retard, middle and max advance?
  • My plan is to use 25-degree VTC for safety, or if the engine happen to have 50-degree in, then limit the wheel mechanically for safety reasons and since there is not proper control & feedback on cam position

Any comments or can you point me to a direction where this has potentially been already done?
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Willkommen bei K20a.org Iiro.t!

...Due cost and other reasons the ECU will be megasquirt II, which don't have enough brains to control VTC properly..... so my thinking was to limit the VTC degrees with pin(s) and use it as on - off based on either RPM or MAP. I know that this doesn't offer all the benefits, but it's still better than nothing....
Wieso soll das nicht gehen? The TunerStudio offers a 3D VVT map via e.g. Load and engine speed. You can run with that a PWM output with that to run the VTC, you just need to setup the PWM frequency and duty cycle. The AEM Infinity runs a similar approach and it works fine.

VTC is advance and retard, however with on - off set up, most likely only one direction is possible?
From controller side you need both: an advance and retard actuation in a closed loop control surrounding.

What are the pins / cables in the VTC solenoid? How to hook it up? Could I do on - off to both directions? So max retard, middle and max advance?
Honda Pin B23 for control input. It's a three wire connector. Voltage supply and VVT signal.

My plan is to use 25-degree VTC for safety, or if the engine happen to have 50-degree in, then limit the wheel mechanically for safety reasons and since there is not proper control & feedback on cam position
Fail safe postion should be 0°, because it is the safest postion and has a hardware pin lock there.

Any comments or can you point me to a direction where this has potentially been already done?
You may need to dive into the TunerStudio help for the setup of the VVT system. I also recommend you to read the manual of the AEM Infinity, which has all what you need and what you can transfer to the MegaSquirt Unit (s. https://www.aemelectronics.com/files/instructions/30-71XX-Infinity-Series-5-Quick-Start-Guide.pdf). If you need further help for the prepartion of the tuner software, tuning or the build you can PM me.

Markus
 

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Thanks Markus!
I was in the understanding that this is only possible with the "pro" model or 3rd version, not the cheap ones....
I have everything in the planning phase still, however these things are critical to thing right before making a commitment to an engine or control system

Iiro
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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I was in the understanding that this is only possible with the "pro" model or 3rd version, not the cheap ones....
Mmmhhh...understood, Liro. Do you have it in your hand already?

I wouldn't recommend it when you can't adjust the VTC by load and engine speed. At Idle you need 0° VTC at full load from 50 down to XX and in part load it's much more efficient to run around 30° to circulate exhaust gases to increase the thermal efficiency. You need a 3D map to control VTC, especially if it has a boost system, which can change the VTC demands of the engine in an significant way at a fixed engine speed just by changing load or vice versa.

My recommendation would be to look out for a proper ECU, e.g. the Honda K24A3 stock one. You can check for flash-options (local and mobile ones are available) on the stock ECU or downgrade your TB to a cable wire and buy a cheap Honda K20A2 PRA ECU, send it out to Doctronic (tuneable access, wideband controller upgrade) and you will have everything you need. I tune and design engines since years and nothing is more annoying as an engine build which is run by a non-appropriate ECU which can't squeeze out the power of it: safe and stable. A 400 whp Honda K-series engine need a proper control of fuel, ignition timing, variable valve timing and lift as well as integrate all controls for the boost setup as well as correction and protection modules.

Just my two cents.
 

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Thanks again, I will most likely do the mechanical fitting first and can basically do the wiring as well to certain extent and then select the system / ECU I'm going to have for the engine control. VTEC I will definitely keep, however I'm "old school" so if I don't have VTC I don't know if I notice it missing.... anyway ECUs get more powerful vs. cost all the time = in couple years of time when the engine is mechanically in place I might have budget to go for something more proper that can use all the engine can offer.
 

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Thanks again, I will most likely do the mechanical fitting first and can basically do the wiring as well to certain extent and then select the system / ECU I'm going to have for the engine control. VTEC I will definitely keep, however I'm "old school" so if I don't have VTC I don't know if I notice it missing.... anyway ECUs get more powerful vs. cost all the time = in couple years of time when the engine is mechanically in place I might have budget to go for something more proper that can use all the engine can offer.
Without vtc peak power should be similar, but you will suffer 20-30whp + losses in the low and mid range
 

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Thanks KBuilt.
It seems that MS 2 is anyway not doing the stuff that I want, so need to consider with what ECU to run. Need an ECU that can vary the boost level depending on amount of E85 in the tank. So say pure gasoline 5psi (0,3bar) and with 100% E85 15psi (1bar) and the mixtures then changing between those. MS 2 can only change injection levels to keep AFR right with varying fuel, but has no boost table based on fuel.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Without vtc peak power should be similar, but you will suffer 20-30whp + losses in the low and mid range
Yes, on turbo builts this can be even more, especially to get the turbo spun up earliest.

It seems that MS 2 is anyway not doing the stuff that I want, so need to consider with what ECU to run. Need an ECU that can vary the boost level depending on amount of E85 in the tank. So say pure gasoline 5psi (0,3bar) and with 100% E85 15psi (1bar) and the mixtures then changing between those. MS 2 can only change injection levels to keep AFR right with varying fuel, but has no boost table based on fuel.
You need an Ethanol sensor plus a serious aftermarket ECU (MaxxECU, AEM Infinity, Haltech Elite, MoTec M1, ECUMaster, ...). BTW, the Honda ECU emulators like Doctronic and Hondata KPro can handle this task too with an proper fitting ethanol sensor.
 

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Thanks Markus,
As I'm "old school" (=mainly carburetors) and not so familiar with Honda, I'm little lost here....
So would this (link below) work for me with suitable wiring set and additional sensors (E85)? Do I need separate MAP sensor?
Hondata KPro 4 / K-Swap ECU Package

So if, then this would be quite reasonable priced option, but does it allow to make boost curve vs. RPM, how many outputs there are for e.g. shift light, etc.?
I don't mind cable driven throttle body, actually prefer that way :)

Ps. for spool I've been planning to do quick spool valve, like this one:
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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As I'm "old school" (=mainly carburetors) and not so familiar with Honda, I'm little lost here....
Very nice! On Opel, VW or Fiat? Which engines and carburetor systems? I grew up with double carburetors on Opel inline 4 CIH engines, my Uncle had a Opel C-Kadett Coupe. Was always keen on the Kugel-Fischer-Injection system, but never got into it.

So would this (link below) work for me with suitable wiring set and additional sensors (E85)? Do I need separate MAP sensor?
Hondata KPro 4 / K-Swap ECU Package
First thing to clarify. Do you have the Drive By Wire (DBW) TB or the Drive By Cable (DBC) TB? If you have a DBC TB and harness you also can go with Doctronic (s. Doctronic - smart solutions - ProECU-K), they have a better pricing and no custom fees in between Europe, but the K-Swap ECU Package you shown there would also fit. It won't fit if you have and keep the DBW TB. You can always downgrade to DBC harness and swap in a DBC TB. The DBW TB and harness need a flashable ECU, those have the DBW driver and controller already on board. I personally like more the DBC systems as a NA guy I love the direct control of the load, which is on a DBW system also achievable, but the aftermarket for bigger sizes is small.

...but does it allow to make boost curve vs. RPM, how many outputs there are for e.g. shift light, etc.?
Yes, both does allow boost setup over engine speed, gear, E85 content and such stuff. There are the stock pin output's available. The question is what functions do you need?

Ps. for spool I've been planning to do quick spool valve
I wouldn't recommend such an approach, this will just increase the likeliness of a corrupt system. You cant seal the shaft properly, it heats up and stick or it is loose and you heat up harness and engine bay stuff. The control of the valve will be challenging as you need a output pin and a map to control it. I designed 9 years at an OEM turbo engines, we controlled boost always on the cold side, never on the hot side, as in a longterm run all WG, VTG and what so ever control valves are a failure trap and reliability risk. Ok, this were industrial stationary engines which has a much different specification (45 % efficiency, 63,000 h lifetime, 8000 h WOT/year, ...), but what I learned from that, keep it simple and reliable instead of fancy and chicky to improve the last 5 %. Automotive OEM's have huge issues with VTG actuation in the automotive, non of them like it, because it is a money pit, you can't get it reliable over lifetime, so they replace it in series on cost of workshops and customers. It's just done to run that downsized engine stuff on bigger turbo's and to achieve NA like response. But it is never like this, just a nearing.
My recommendation would be a good anti-lag-tuning plus a smaller turbo size approach with an twin spool turbine housing and a right designed header. Here you can change between worlds in spool time on a straight and often used path.

When fancy shi...t is your path, then the Volvo-like path, they introduced 10 years ago a different approach, they used compressed air over a nozzle to spin the compressor faster up to boost levels. This is a much more effective and reliable method. You just need a truck air compressor connected to the auxiliary drive and fill up a compressed air tank and release the air at transient changes to spin that thing. Same could be done on the exhaust side, but then the air is lost.

BTW, you live just some km away from me. World is so small :D. PM'd you...
 
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