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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Anyone making an ITB system for the V6 J engines yet ??
Could be an interesting application.
How many people are playing with the J engine ?

LHP
 

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Yep. Obviously I don't work there anymore but I can see they used their MC250 individual throttle bodies on locator bars with butterflies in the radius plates. I'm guessing Evans made everything under them. Not a purpose-built J-series casting.

There were talks about doing C-series ITBs and we got as far as getting a mock-up motor and heads. And the C-series ITBs would have been awesome, but when everything was said & done, the market (money) wasn't there. So it never happened.

I looked into the J while I was there. If you left the lower intake on the heads, you could make a 1-piece 6-throttle casting that bolted onto it. But A) it would be an expensive casting that would require super precise machining and B) you still have the lower OEM manifold as a restriction. So just get rid of the lower manifold? Now the casting is even more expensive with even more critical machining, there's no room in the valley for "beefy" runners so they are still going to be choked down, and there's no good way to bolt ITBs to those heads. They were designed for that common lower manifold.

And even if you cleared all those hurdles and figured out an optimal design, your global market for $4000+ J-series ITBs is going to be what? 4 - 6 people?

Not saying it shouldn't be done, just sharing what I know and thinking out loud.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Yep. Obviously I don't work there anymore but I can see they used their MC250 individual throttle bodies on locator bars with butterflies in the radius plates. I'm guessing Evans made everything under them. Not a purpose-built J-series casting.

There were talks about doing C-series ITBs and we got as far as getting a mock-up motor and heads. And the C-series ITBs would have been awesome, but when everything was said & done, the market (money) wasn't there. So it never happened.

I looked into the J while I was there. If you left the lower intake on the heads, you could make a 1-piece 6-throttle casting that bolted onto it. But A) it would be an expensive casting that would require super precise machining and B) you still have the lower OEM manifold as a restriction. So just get rid of the lower manifold? Now the casting is even more expensive with even more critical machining, there's no room in the valley for "beefy" runners so they are still going to be choked down, and there's no good way to bolt ITBs to those heads. They were designed for that common lower manifold.

And even if you cleared all those hurdles and figured out an optimal design, your global market for $4000+ J-series ITBs is going to be what? 4 - 6 people?

Not saying it shouldn't be done, just sharing what I know and thinking out loud.
I was thinking about something for my own use, so I've located a core for cheap, I have local casting pattern shops that I deal with that are hurting for work right now, so I'll see what can be fit into the v of the engine. And if there is a market, Who knows ?
I was thinking a lower cost than your estimate.

As for the C series (NSX)V6 I designed an ITB system for them years ago for an other company and they sell a few every year but that market is pretty small over all.

LHP
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I've noticed a few people view this thread, so I am asking for input,
what would you like to see added, feature wise to the ITB system.
Any suggestions ??
There will be a vacuum source per cylinder bank for power brakes etc.

LHP
 

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Discussion Starter #10
The crossram i'm thinking about should be less in height than the stock intake,
but can't guarantee it at this point.

LHP
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I've got the patterns made to cast the adapter plates that will bolt to each V6 head,
this is so as to adapt the ports/runners that I have to design,
It will be a bit tricky to get the ports to pass each other in a crossram form and still retain good crossectional area, the best way is to cast each port separate and bolt them in place, assembling the system on the engine, this way I can make multiple port designs to fit the V6 engine and work with different rpm ranges and throttle sizes.
Cost effective multi use parts.

But I've been really busy with customer work and that's keeping me from getting back to the V6 ITB deal right now.
Hope to get back to it when things slow a bit in a month or two.

LHP
 

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Think you can incorporate the design for a future manifold mod in the future? Like a bolt on enclosure similar to what is used on some open wheel (formula) cars? NSX has a lot of room in the bay...wouldn't be difficult to fit a large manifold with a boosted setup. Just food for thought.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Something bigger better for boost,, I assume ,,,Hmmm you never know :)
Really have to see how this works out first !

LHP
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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...It will be a bit tricky to get the ports to pass each other in a crossram form and still retain good crossectional area...
Are ITB's it really worth to put that effort on the table? The V6 produce much more underhood heat flux than the tiny K-series, the exhaust routing support that too while it difficult to balance them in length. The cooling air pathes/volumes through the enginebay are more limited - I talk about the Civic and TSX chassis - therefore for me it seems very challenging to provide cool air for induction with ITB's with stock hood. So this lead to a sort of more specific market: drag (weight?), circuit racing (weight?), ...I really wonder myself if there is an application, making sense for V6 ITB's in the K-series chassis area?

A high power plenum design would be much more easier to applicate for a broader market within the K-series chassis...of course the NSX chassis is a different talk, but are there enough guys here who are interested in to give you the right answer?

Hope to get back to it when things slow a bit in a month or two...
Isn't it more worth to work on a K-series plenum intake manifold?

The answers of the market here are mainly clearance driven designs, which may fit optimal to VE support of a high revving FI engine but not for a NA application, which have a lower revving band up to 9 krpm. Every aftermarket supplier has one design for all displacements, all engine speeds, all inductions types, which is a very bad compromise.

A pitty that I have no production capacities for my ideas to that. It is possible to compete agianst ITB's in the range up to 9 krpm, with specific plenum designs even up to 10 krpm...with a much smarter fuel mass control (speed-density-calculation)...I am convinced there is both, a valuable business case and customer advantage.

:twocents:
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
If everything had to make sense, nothing would get done ! :)
There are more uses for this engine then just in Honda car chassis.
And as for using a stock hood, most V6 converted cars don't fit under the stock hood with the stock intake manifold !!
So why bother with changing to a V6 at all, with your thoughts.

Quit over thinking it, just have fun with it.
For the average guy, Torque is where it's at, bigger better, more CC's easier to drive.
3200cc up to 3700cc compared to a 2000cc/2400cc that you are revving to the moon.

HaHaHa I have already made and market (3) plenum manifolds for the Honda K engine and (2) of those have so many options, they cover almost anything you want to do,
so onto new fun applications !!
The cost of casting patterns for a plenum manifold to fit the J V6 is way beyond what I want to get into for the market size, the V6 ITB system would be made up from less complicated patterns, way less cost to me with way more options in the long run.

LHP
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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If everything had to make sense, nothing would get done ! :)
LOL :D...maybe shifting my perspective will make it useful to me :D. But the ITB system itself doesn't let me do this...it's like to break a butterfly on a wheel :D...beyond 10 krpm maybe yes :wink:

HaHaHa I have already made and market (3) plenum manifolds for the Honda K engine and (2) of those have so many options, they cover almost anything you want to do...
Really? I didn't find my aimed design in your products list of your website. But yes, Hayward Performance is one of those few companies, offering a modular intake manifold program :up:

Markus
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Really? I didn't find my aimed design in your products list of your website. But yes, Hayward Performance is one of those few companies, offering a modular intake manifold program :up:

Markus[/QUOTE]

Maybe you should start a thread asking for what you want/need in the K engine section,
as I don't know what you want and the parameters you need to work within ??
I tend to make things I get asked for the most !!
Dragracing is the biggest thing right now, what do you need ?
Start a new thread !!

LHP
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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...as I don't know what you want and the parameters you need to work within...I tend to make things I get asked for the most...Dragracing is the biggest thing right now, what do you need ?
Start a new thread...
Thanks for your offer LHP! All fab work is already ordered...you find details about the ongoning process in the build link below in my signature.

Markus
 
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