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Discussion Starter #1
to anyone with experience on this subject or knows the answer 100% , are stock k20a2 steel retainers strong enough to hold aftermarket dual valve springs?

i bought a new set of brian crower dual springs and titanium retainers along with stage 2 NA camshafts. once installed , one rocker arm was hitting the retainer. 1.... out of 16 , lol. this was after driving on them for 2k and taking the cover off to have a look and finding this 1 retainer looking like something was nibbling at it slowly. after closer inspection , i noticed the hole in the retainer , looked too big , as the locks were further set into this 1 retainer than all the others. i would really rather use OEM parts if possible.

also i noticed one of the lobes on the camshaft was pitted and wore down significantly. and not the same lobe that rides on the troubled retainer. it was one of the low cam lobes for #2 cylinder on the intake cam. i noticed also that when the wore down lobe was in its total relaxed position as in no pressure on the rocker , there still was pressure on the rocker. with the lobe in relaxed position , you should be abl to spin the roller on the rocker , you couldnt for this one lobe. maybe a grind issue with the cam idk. you can tell by looking at the damage to the cam that its a weak spot in the core the cam was ground on. my opinion anyways. to say the least i wasnt impressed after paying money for them new.

camshaft



retainer





any insight?
 

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yes, you can use oem steel retainers. they will be fine and some guys have changed out the titanium for steel so they can be used for higher milage.

as far as the cam. i would call brian crower and see if they will be covered under warrenty, esp. since you bought them new.

and since you got proof in front of you that their retainer screwed it up.

But if you want to be completely safe.. get supertech steel retainers
 

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I have been using the IPS recommended OEM combination with my IPS k2's for well over 180K miles and there has been absolutely no issues what-so-ever! In fact they actually reduced the amount of ghost knock to nill. You will have to have a 8500rpm rev limit with this combo, which is fine by me as I dont need to spin nearly that high to walk any NA S2k.

This uses the yellow RSX/S2k intake springs and the RSX red inner exhaust spring with the SINGLE spring dished retainers on all 16 valves.
 

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I have been using the IPS recommended OEM combination with my IPS k2's for well over 180K miles and there has been absolutely no issues what-so-ever! In fact they actually reduced the amount of ghost knock to nill. You will have to have a 8500rpm rev limit with this combo, which is fine by me as I dont need to spin nearly that high to walk any NA S2k.

This uses the yellow RSX/S2k intake springs and the RSX red inner exhaust spring with the SINGLE spring dished retainers on all 16 valves.
So do you have to run the single spring retainers for this to be effective??

what would be wrong with running the dual spring retainers?
 

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The RSX dual spring retainers where not used as they would have made for a lower installed spring height, too much spring tension. IIRC Ron said it would match the installed height of the 9k+ setup using the EVS, but without the strength to allow that high of a redline and causes too much wear on the valvetrain components.
 

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Ok.. so i have the 16 red inners, 16 yellow outters.. And it doesnt matter which single spring retainer as long as it fits the springs i assume??
 

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This is from IPS
* Dished retainer - 14765-PRB-A01
* Yellow outer spring - 14761-PCX-003
* Red inner spring - 14752-PRB-A01
 

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Discussion Starter #9
thanks guys for insight and notorious for the answer.
 

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honda actually had a problem with some of there rocker arms, im not 100% sure if it happens to there 3 rocker setups but i know there 2 rocker setups like in rsx base model and 02-05 ep3's ate up the camshaft lobes just like your pictures show, im not saying thats what happened to your just saying it could be a possiblity
 

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Discussion Starter #11
ate up what camshaft lobes? stock cams? youd think they would eat up the stock cam lobes as well than if it was a problem. keep in mind , my cams werent even run for 2k miles. look at the pic , they are MINT other than the weak lobe. i work on hondas daily , own my own shop. i can assue you it was no installation fault just to rule it out.
 

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FYI On some of the early Crower kits there were issues with the retainers. They were the wrong size (or something) so the rockers wore them down as in your photo. Perhaps you ended up with one of those?
 

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It looks like you have some other issues going on with that head. Perhaps your valve heights are causing the bottom of the rocker to hit the edge of the retainer. Or, the valve has pounded the seat to the point where it's sunk in too deep. Who did the valve job on the head? Did you happen to order new valve locks?

It also looks like you have a seized roller rocker. You need to replace that rocker if you can't spin the roller. A bad roller can easily cause wear like that to any cam from any manufacturer.
 

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...It also looks like you have a seized roller rocker. You need to replace that rocker if you can't spin the roller. A bad roller can easily cause wear like that to any cam from any manufacturer.
Yeah, might have been bits from the shredded retainer that seized up the roller.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
nothing wrong with anything in the head. its all currently used as we speak. the roller that rode on that wore down lobe , wouldnt roll even when the cam lobe was away from it , or when there is not supposed to be load on the rockers roller. i said all this in my first post. i chalk it up as poorly engineered and manufactured parts. nothing like top notch quality control. once the cams and valvetrain were out of my head , all the rollers roll , thank god i only had the cams in for a very short time. there is no other issue with the head. my swap has little over 30k miles on it now. its currently stock k20a2 with greddy 2.5" sp2 , DC short header and Kpro. putting down 195/142.

Yeah, might have been bits from the shredded retainer that seized up the roller.
as ive said , the lobe that is wore down is NOT the same lobe with the troubled retainer.

It looks like you have some other issues going on with that head. Perhaps your valve heights are causing the bottom of the rocker to hit the edge of the retainer. Or, the valve has pounded the seat to the point where it's sunk in too deep. Who did the valve job on the head? Did you happen to order new valve locks?
i put the cams and valvetrain in th head myself as ive said. the seats are fine , not a mark on them. i used the OEM locks that came out of the head. it had less than 30k miles on it at the time. you and i both know they are fine to reuse. but your touching close to the problem. listen close , lol. ive already said this too. with the springs and retainer and locks installed on the valve the troubled retainer was on. the locks were sunk too deep into the retainers , almost like the bevel'd hole for the valve to portrude that the locks get pinched in was too big slightly. so the stem of the valve where the rocker sits on it , was too low in the retainer , therefore the rocker ws hitting the edge of the retainer. you follow?
 

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You may want to contact Brian Crower and find out which model valve cotter they used, the PR7 or the PRB. The PR7 are a narrower angle than the PRB. If you use the PR7 cotters in a retainer designed for the PRB cotters, you will end up with big problems.
 

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Wow what a coincidence I had that same problem in a motor i built.
Happened with a different cam company , but the damage was the same.
small lobe on cylinder 4 intake cam wore down .010,and instead of the retainer the valve tip wore down to the cotter. The knock counts were thru the roof.The rollers were fine, I took them all out and inspected the them and they were fine. At first i questioned my valve lash adjustment, then i spoke with a few ppl who had the same problem. Can we all be that bad at adjusting valves? I don't think so.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
i had the same problem when i tuned my car as well. rediculous knock counts. thanks alot guys for insight.
 

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as ive said , the lobe that is wore down is NOT the same lobe with the troubled retainer.
Right, so bits of metal flying around can't cause any harm? A chunk of Ti that found it's way between the roller and the cam might have caused the initial pitting of the cam, regardless of where the Ti came from.

Your original problem seems to be in the retainers being wrong, as I first suggested. It may well be that they were intended for use with the other cotter angle. This angle was changed by Honda in the later K engines. See this thread for details on the change to the keepers/cotters:
http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=462167&highlight=cotters
 

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Discussion Starter #20
well the 16 retainers came sealed in one bag. whats the chances one wrong size retainer made its way in the bag? next time i take the valve cover of ill check the retainers for the marks.
 
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