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EJ6 K24 Ringtool
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello everybody!

Yesterday I was testing my K24 swapped coupe for the first time on track, Hochenheimring. Engine is K24A3 with boltons, new K20A2 oil pump and with Blox bolt in oil baffle. Everything went good, except two issues.

1. Oil pressure was dropping AF in corners, doesnt matter left or right one, even down under 1 bar (14 Psi in freedom units :p). Oil level was slighly under maximum. I have OEM K24 steel oil pan with boltinBaffle from Blox. It looks like this: What I dont have, is the the timing chain cover baffle. Can I assume, that this baffle is just not good enought for serious tracking and I need to buy or design/manufacture something better? Any suggestion? Resources are there to build something own, but I wanted to save some time while putting the engine together to still finish before the season. :) I have to add, that I definitely want to keep the K24 steel pan because of the clearence and robustness.




2. Another problem was quite significant oil loss, in 2 x 15 min on track engine used ca. 0,5l of oil. I am using 5W40. Normally there is slight oil consumption, but not that much. Is it possible, that in left corners excesive amount of oil got thrown around on the timing chain, which somehow got out through block/valve cover ventilation?


Here one picture of the car, K24 in combination with lightweight chassis is fun as F*ck :D

 

Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Welcome to K20a.org @robivtez! Landau in der Pfalz ist ja nicht so weit weg von hier 馃槄.

Oil pressure was dropping AF in corners, doesnt matter left or right one, even down under 1 bar (14 Psi in freedom units :p)
That's very hazardous for your engine. Do you have a chance to endoscope the combustion chamber? Just to see if there are signs of seizure, which can be an indicator to have those at the bearings too.

Can I assume, that this baffle is just not good enought for serious tracking and I need to buy or design/manufacture something better? Any suggestion? Resources are there to build something own, but I wanted to save some time while putting the engine together to still finish before the season. :) I have to add, that I definitely want to keep the K24 steel pan because of the clearence and robustness.
Definitely, above 1.4 g the baffle concepts begin to work properly or start to fail. There was a system advertised here working up to 2 g of acceleration, just run a search here "buffled sump, 2 g, ...", 5 s search gave me this: (6) Oil pan recommendations | Honda / Acura K20a K24a Engine Forum, you find my post there to what I've mentioned above.

Another problem was quite significant oil loss, in 2 x 15 min on track engine used ca. 0,5l of oil.
What is the actual compression test result of your engine?
 

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without significant down force, you won鈥檛 see more than a sustained 1.2g even on semi slicks besides some peak loads.
If you lose oil pressure at high revs on track, your rod bearings get destroyed in short order. Been there, done that.

I attribute a big part of oil losses on track with K-series coming from the PCV system. At high revs, you get a lot of oil spray and splash in the timing chain area that gets then sucked into the intake manifold decelerating at 6k+ rpm.

I installed a simple shut of valve in the line between PCV valve and IM for track use to disconnect it. There is little to no oil coming out of the top cover.
I did a track day in Zandvoort last summer at 40掳C with the PCV disconnected and a Mann Provent air oil separation system installed on the valve cover outlet.
There was some mist in the reservoir, but no a single droplet of oil at the bottom of the separator.
The oil gets also hot enough on track to evaporate most of the petrol, partial combustion byproducts and water. The active transport by the PCV systems air flow through the engine required to remove these condensates on the road with its lower oil temps is not required at 100掳C plus oil temps. The blowby itself will take care of that.
 

Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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I attribute a big part of oil losses on track with K-series coming from the PCV system. At high revs, you get a lot of oil spray and splash in the timing chain area that gets then sucked into the intake manifold decelerating at 6k+ rpm.
That's a good point, which is also in the area of suspicious candidates for an lack of oil when it is basically difficult to hold it where it should be 馃啓.
 

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EJ6 K24 Ringtool
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for all the answers.

Welcome to K20a.org @robivtez! Landau in der Pfalz ist ja nicht so weit weg von hier 馃槄.
Where is "hier" ? :D

That's very hazardous for your engine. Do you have a chance to endoscope the combustion chamber? Just to see if there are signs of seizure, which can be an indicator to have those at the bearings too.
What is the actual compression test result of your engine?
Not really, but I will just hope its still all good. Its 100% OEM never opened bottom end, so I wouldnt worry too much. Just in case, I also have another K24 engine lying around. :p

I attribute a big part of oil losses on track with K-series coming from the PCV system. At high revs, you get a lot of oil spray and splash in the timing chain area that gets then sucked into the intake manifold decelerating at 6k+ rpm.
Jup, sounds very possible.


Sometime ago I have booked another TF on Hockenheimring in two days, so I got to work. Luckily I have spare K24 and one K20 oil pump lying around for easy test fit. I hope I will be able to finish it and change the oil pan in time before Wednesday. :censored:





 

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Looks like the same Blox bolt in oil baffle that I'm using on my K24. I believe it specifies it must be used with the RSX Type S oil pan. Maybe it's just not as efficient with the steel pan?
 

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I picked up a Unit2 steel pan for my JDM K24a. I went this route, with a Type S pump, based on fellow track racers. My swap is not in yet but I am impressed with the pan design.
 

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@Lotus
I did a track day in Zandvoort last summer at 40掳C with the PCV disconnected and a Mann Provent air oil separation system installed on the valve cover outlet.
There was some mist in the reservoir, but no a single droplet of oil at the bottom of the separator.
Did you use Mann provent 100, 200 or other oil separator system?
Provent 200 seems like a good option.

I think that a lot of oil losses can be contributed to excessive blow by and therefore more crankcase pressure which means more breathing out of valve cover outlet. This "blox style" baffling is not that bad and should work just as good as any other. Surely there are better options, especially if you track long corners, but for average joe on semi slicks it works.



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I got the ProVent 200.
I have only used it for 1 trackday. There was no oil in it despite the PCV being blocked and lot's of blow by.
I think the valve cover is reasonably good in separating out the oil.
The engine had worn cylinders and as burning 1l of oil per 100 km on track.
I retired the bottom end after his track day.

The pistons were all coked on the top and there was a significant amount of oil in the intake manifold when I once took it off to test an RBC vs the ported RRC. BTW, I preferred the delivery of the RBC.
I also at first thought it was caused the valve cover vent, but the Mann Provent proved it was at least initially the PCV leading to the ever present oil consumption since building it despite ton's of blow by due to the cylinder wear. Oil burns to coke. Coke is abrasive and wears the cylinder wall. Short rod to stroke ratio (k22 stroker) leads to high side forces and piston tilt accelerating wear. Once worn, you get internal oil consumption past the rings speeding up the process.
All 4 cylinders were worn the same way suggesting the oil was distributed though the intake.
 

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What oil are you using? It's possible your oil thinned out from the heat on track, I experienced this recently with Castrol Magnatec, it drained out like water after the track day.

How is your oil pressure now after warming up, is it the same pressure as before the track day or has it possibly dropped a bit?
 

Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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What oil are you using? It's possible your oil thinned out from the heat on track, I experienced this recently with Castrol Magnatec, it drained out like water after the track day.

How is your oil pressure now after warming up, is it the same pressure as before the track day or has it possibly dropped a bit?
Before using a Castrol oil its better using the Olive Salad Oil . The chances of an surviving engine with any oil are better than with a Castrol. Amsoil SS, Mobil1 FS or Ravenol VSW Are oils for engines.
 

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Before using a Castrol oil its better using the Olive Salad Oil . The chances of an surviving engine with any oil are better than with a Castrol. Amsoil SS, Mobil1 FS or Ravenol VSW Are oils for engines.
Now I know... I've used it for years on the road without problems but the track was too much...

Oh and for me this happen on long right hand turns
 

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Did you use a baffled sump system?
I didn't have a baffle yet back then. I have actually just started up my car for the first time with a baffle in it. The first proper test will be later this month.

Home-made welded-in baffle similar to spoon.
 

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EJ6 K24 Ringtool
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks again for all usefull information. (y)

My baffles are slowly coming together. :D Still thinking, if I should put a plate over it like Unit2Fab design, or not.




That should do. Some people said, I should fill some more oil in, I guess something like 300 ml over maximum won麓t do any harm and help my issue? I will definitely try to disconnect the PCV next time like Lotus suggested.

I am using Ravenol 5W40 RUP, surprisingly oil stayed quite cool, even without an oil cooler. Maximum I saw was 107 掳C, at around 20 掳C outside.
 

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Thanks again for all usefull information. (y)

My baffles are slowly coming together. :D Still thinking, if I should put a plate over it like Unit2Fab design, or not.




That should do. Some people said, I should fill some more oil in, I guess something like 300 ml over maximum won麓t do any harm and help my issue? I will definitely try to disconnect the PCV next time like Lotus suggested.

I am using Ravenol 5W40 RUP, surprisingly oil stayed quite cool, even without an oil cooler. Maximum I saw was 107 掳C, at around 20 掳C outside.
Looks good(y)
 

Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Still thinking, if I should put a plate over it like Unit2Fab design, or not.
If the steering dynamic, see e.g. slalom or rallye applications, yes, otherwise no, as the fill in after hard deceleration of engine speed is slower (oil fog condensation and accumulation). For low dynamic turns like you see it on the Green Hell, I don't think it is the essential advantage you need.

I guess something like 300 ml over maximum won麓t do any harm and help my issue?
On higher engine speeds more oil mass is available as fog and not in the sump. So when you overfill it you compensate just this lower level. As a rule of sump, at around 8000 rpm up to 25 % of the oil is less available compared to idle speed depending on ventilation effects. Honda uses a baffle plate to reduce this effect. Anyway, it is necessary to greas all friction areas at higher engine speeds, but not to flood them. So that item is sensitive and should not over streached by adding too much of baffels down low in the pan.

I am using Ravenol 5W40 RUP, surprisingly oil stayed quite cool, even without an oil cooler. Maximum I saw was 107 掳C, at around 20 掳C outside.
The USVO-Technology of Ravenol, very expensive, is a great step forward for engines like Honda K-series it is. The low ZDDP content and more stable polymere approach is something I observing intensely. I've tested the VSW type oil (also with the USVO-Tech) in several engines and it is amazing in its load capacity and shear stability. I see there a German alternative to the Amsoil SS, which was my favorite for a long time and never disappointed. Great choice from my perspective 馃啓.
 
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