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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Welcome to K20a.org @funkjaw! What an interesting introduction and data set you are supplying here. That's pretty interesting!

I currently have a 4Piston Racing TSX head on order, so within a few months this will go back on the dyno with a new head, upgraded valve train, aftermarket cams (not sure which cams to go with), larger throttle body, but with same stock bottom end.
I am looking forward to read about your results!

Average compression across all 4 cylinders is 183psi, Cylinder 1 and 3 have leaking valves
Before tuning too? What kind of leak is it? I just wonder because of the Compression test result. Did you a leakdown test too or did you hear the valve sound and derived that verdict?

IATs were >115 degrees F
Wow, that is a lot. Was this condition with pump fuel too. I assume so, as the VE increase was huge with E85. An IAT of more then 115 °F is a great supporter for alcohol, which need more energy to vaporize and supplies more mass per combustion event, so a two folded advantage beside the faster combustion speed.

I had a customer in South Africa, who's race engine IAT have shown 55 °C. We tuned it in Winter at 15 °C. It enriched that badly that I thought of liner washing immediately. The Hondata FPro don't do the IAT correction correct, still a bug in their SW.
 

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Welcome to K20a.org @funkjaw

Before tuning too? What kind of leak is it? I just wonder because of the Compression test result. Did you a leakdown test too or did you hear the valve sound and derived that verdict?
I had a suspicion of leaking valves because there was oil build up on the spark plugs when I first got the engine, so I had a cylinder leak down test performed which confirmed I have leaking exhaust valves. I made the choice to just run the engine as in because I knew I was going to eventually put together a new head for it (new short block at some point as well).

Wow, that is a lot. Was this condition with pump fuel too.
Yeah same hot condition on pump fuel as well. It was 40 °C+ the day of tuning :(

I just need to decide on what set of cams to get. I'm thinking Toda A3 from everything I have read as I prefer midrange and I don't plan on going past 8200-8400 rpm even with the new head.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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I made the choice to just run the engine as in because I knew I was going to eventually put together a new head for it
Understood, thanks for your reply.

I just need to decide on what set of cams to get. I'm thinking Toda A3 from everything I have read as I prefer midrange and I don't plan on going past 8200-8400 rpm even with the new head.
87x99, stock CR, 4P TSX head, TODA A3 cams?
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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That's correct.
That will be a real funny torque monster. As you tend to stroke it for some time and raise CR then the TODA D would be a better compromise for both setups. The TODA D won't let it peak beyond 8400 rpm as long as you don't adapt the IM. With the RRC or RBC you still will see peak power at around 8200 rpm as the bigger displacement let the intake velocity is higher and for longer staying compared to a 86x86 engine.
 

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That will be a real funny torque monster. As you tend to stroke it for some time and raise CR then the TODA D would be a better compromise for both setups. The TODA D won't let it peak beyond 8400 rpm as long as you don't adapt the IM. With the RRC or RBC you still will see peak power at around 8200 rpm as the bigger displacement let the intake velocity is higher and for longer staying compared to a 86x86 engine.
Yup that's the idea :) I want great midrange for canyon cruising, daily driving, drifting, etc..

Interesting you are recommending the Toda D instead of the A3. You mention the RRC/RBC manifolds, but keep in mind the manifold I am using because this is a RWD car is the Kpower RWD conversion manifold. Notes about this manifold:
  • Three liter plenum provides sufficient volume for both stock and built engines
  • Comparable top end power with increased mid range torque compared to the Skunk2 Ultra Street
With this info, would you still recommend the TODA D vs the A3 for a daily driven street car?

I appreciate your input by the way! This is all very helpful as I navigate the new to me world of honda engines.

Cylinder Automotive design Auto part Pipe Rim
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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With this info, would you still recommend the TODA D vs the A3 for a daily driven street car?
Sure the TODA D, which has 10° more duration as the A3 on both cams, would lower the dynamic compression on an OE CR of 10.0:1, but as long as your plan is to increase the CR later on and keep it (CR only, not stroke), the D would be my recommendation.

Here is a nice comparison of a 87.5x99, 12.5:1 engine with the DC Elite Endurance on several IM's: Skunk2 Street Manifold. That midrange torque of 300 Nm (221 ftlb) at flywheel is fun. The DC EE compares to the TODA D regarding duration quite well.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Thanks for sharing your dyno day results :).

DC DIC, rdx injectors, rbc IM, swap header, q300 exhaust, type s oil pump, type s tb, kpro, PNN3 6 speed lsd trans
Good performance data for your setup. What would a stock K24A2 show there? I assume fuel was pump gas?
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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I'm unfamiliar with the dyno and what a stock k24a2 would put down. 91 pump gas was used.
Thanks for your reply to dyno reference measurement and the fuel which was used.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Here we have good induction kit test with good data on iat and also larget TB test.
Thanks for sharing @Kowalski999. The fairness of the test is not really there:
  • the TB was tested on a stock near induction and I didn't see if the IM was port matched
  • the Group M induction kit was tested against the intakes in a un-real situation of filter position, that's really an uneven test basis
  • the intake measurements with Filter up in the air are close to precision (repeatability) of the dyno and says only a liiiiitle bit about there different efficiencies when they are mounted in a correct positon. Bigger filters can there be a disadvantage because of the bigger amount of area near to heated parts and less cool air induction.
 

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To me Grupe M is a joke. Have you seen how small that filter is? Was baffled when I saw price tag on it. I can make that type of induction for 100 bucks and it would outperform it.
As for sri iat with big filter I wouldn't sweat about it. Just runn alu flex hose from bumper to filter and you are good.

On my sri setup at 19c ambient temp iat is 22c . With hose removed iat jumps to 26c and intake is right nex to the battery.
My test proves that good sri setup can have colder air than in bumper cai.
Shorter and colder = more power.

Every compereson that I have seen of good sri vs in bumper long cai setup resoult was in favor of sri.
It is always 5-10hp gain so personally I will stick with sri.

As for TB it would be good if they stated if i.m. was port matched or not.
On my setup I will stay with stock tb ported entry (in 68/61out)

One interesting test that I did was 100-200 kmh pull on cold night, Iat was 12c and time was 17.1sec, VS on hot high humidity sumer night, iat was 28c and time was 19.2 sec.
 

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The Sk2 Ultra street that was used in the 70mm TB test of Tegiwa has a 71mm opening out of the box. so yes, it was "ported".
"-71mm Throttle Body Opening"

Fits to my findings using a CNC ported and opened up (70mm) RRC intake on my former K22. In terms of MAP dropping over rpm the 70mm S90 TB showed no advantage over a 64.5mm J's racing ported OEM TB. There were a few mbar in it the most. This is on the level of noise or like 1HP.
 

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I will have good data when I get bolted up with everything. Just waiting on parts and having time to install them is ...
At my local dyno there were 5 stock cl9 accords and all were in same range of power. 187hp (187hp car had 300 000km on it)-191hp. Bapro is really precise if I was to judge it by this and they are stating what is DIN correction on the sheet. So no funny stuff there.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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The Sk2 Ultra street that was used in the 70mm TB test of Tegiwa has a 71mm opening out of the box. so yes, it was "ported".
Thanks for the hint to the IM.

I am still with you guys and agree with you, the TB was tested on a stock near system. And since 2004 we know from Hondata's measurement the bigger TB is of no use there. But also Hondata as well as other measurements have shown if power is increased and let's say 280 hp TB size matters. At 310 hp the 70 mm TB was too small, the 74 mm TB made it better, an 80 mm TB would not worth the money for this. On the 1200 hp engine a 90 mm TB still does much better then a 74 mm even if boost is at 4.5 bar, on a 380 hp NA engine a 90 mm TB does also help a lot over a 62.5 and 74 mm TB. That test was just not worth the money as the wheel is still round and keeps round to be efficient as wheel.

Regarding the test specifics of the filter height above the engine and direction, these are, sounds hard but it is like that, worthless, as it tells nothing about the system as it works in a street driven version of it. A simple example, the DAMPFHAMMER made on street up to 130 % VE at a lambda of 0.90 at 7500 rpm and was knock free till 32° BTDC. On dyno the exact same setup made only 120 % VE at a lambda of 0.90 at 7500 rpm and was only knock free till 24°. Why this? At the local dyno the intake routing, on it's aimed location in the bay, lead to sniff exhaust gases into the engine over the intake in an magnitude of 10 % VE points, which reduced necessary fuel and reduced due to flame speed effect of exhaust gas to a lower flame speed and therefore to a 8° retarded knock margin! If I would adapt the setup on dyno it would likely do the same as it does on street, make good power. Same here, non would drive with the filter 300 mm above the hood on street:
  • 1st MAP would be lowered by and according vehicle speed (static pressure get reduced by kinetic pressure, created by velocity) by the above hood filters
  • 2nd IAT increases, having the filter at aimed bay location, and knock margin get's retarded as well as air density get lowered which mean less power and
  • 3rd comparing the M-Group filter at aimed location with pipe related CAI showing 300 mm above the hood is comparing apple with onions. The M-Group filter design was done based on the rule book of the M-Group, CAI's like the pipe related systems where not allowed. There are still regulations, where later is not allowed but the M-Group filter is allowed, like here in Germany.
Customers of Tegiwa don't buy parts because of wining the dyno queen award, but because of having parts which produce more VE on street conditions. Therefore the whole test is worthless in that manner, but still interesting how the MAHA reacts to the changes ;).
 

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Someone needs to do the testing with K like Garage 4age is doing 😀.
Here you can see what setup they have chosen. I recon they tested different stuff and this made the most power.

Also there is alot of data at SRD Motorsports TV where they tested setups and found out that longer intake made more power. That was on high comp D and B series. So prob intake length is specific to an engine.
On my car Im loosing power when I extend it behind the bumper.

SRD has some good stuff in works so It is worth subscribing

Yesterday friend did IAT test on ep3 with short ram and injen cai. Short ram was +18c, injen was +6c of ambient temperature.
I told him how to channel air to the sri with flex alu pipe so we can see how cold we can get it, bud I don't think that he wants to bother testing that it so it will stay a mystery.


@LotusElise How can I calculate VE on my car as it doesnt have MAF sensor, I can only look at IAT, ign, MAP and lambda values?
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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@LotusElise How can I calculate VE on my car as it doesnt have MAF sensor, I can only look at IAT, ign, MAP and lambda values?
If you have injector mass flow and lambda it is a straight forward process. Do you have Excel capacities to implement a little formula and to read out the log data of: MAP, IAT, engine speed injector duration, injector delay, lambda, fuel temperature/pressure?

Yesterday friend did IAT test on ep3 with short ram and injen cai. Short ram was +18c, injen was +6c of ambient temperature.
A mystery which can be solved by analysis of sensor position, heat transfer coefficient assumptions, intake position in the bay and maybe further needed aspects. The first 3 would be a first indicator of what we talk about when we condense it down to the root cause.
 

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Looks like I would need some better diagnostic for that, cant do any fuel /injecoter related readout with this cheep obd and phone app that I'm using now.
Some other time than. Thanks 👍
 
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