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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
This is an Integra that Someone else built
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This is the type of track we run on. This track is 4/10 of a mile with 17 degrees of banking in the turns and 7 degrees on the straights
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This is an Integra that Someone else built View attachment 105574
This is the type of track we run on. This track is 4/10 of a mile with 17 degrees of banking in the turns and 7 degrees on the straights View attachment 105575
That track looks like 16-17 sec lap times for stock cars with V8's. Always turn 4 is the "walking" turn that is hardest on the suspension. I used to drive my old Honda on a track like that for fun.
 

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Yeah if you are not going to tear that engine all apart to gain extra power here and there - get a top of the line header and exhaust. It will make or break the difference in being competitive, I am willing to bet others will be running top of the line headers. A good header provides quality "transient response" - the ability to get from the lowest rpm to the highest rpm the fastest making usable power the whole way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
17.702 took the pole here last race in the class I’m running. The late model stocks(V8) Josh Berry who drives for Dale Jr was on the pole with a 16.067
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
@Them Witches thanks for all your help. I feel confident I can make the car turn and get the gearing right. I have never built a Honda engine and wanted to make sure I got the most potential out of the engine. Your advice has been priceless.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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This is a car a friend of mine built for the same class I’m running in
Asphalt oval track. No dirt.
That is a very interesting application. If you need more torque for your engine, I have many approaches to do so in the field of an NA engine concept. What are the rules regarding the engine?

I just developed a 100 ftlb/Liter NA concept which already verified it's potential at the dyno. A 2 Liter engine which made 200 ftlb at flywheel at 5250 rpm, at 5500 rpm the gearbox broke, so more has to come after I tune further after the repair.

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The DAMPFHAMMER engine, specified for 96 ftlb/Liter from 4500-8500 rpm. I am just designing another 89x80 engine (1991 ccm) for 360 [email protected],000 rpm for some speed applications, which still delivers in the simulation 90 ftlb/Liter from 6000-10000 rpm. The K-series offers a bunch of possibilities to improve VE and combustion to get torque up over a wide powerband. This is one of the best I4's from the production line off.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
I’m new to the forum so take it easy on me. I have done hours of searching and have not found what I’m looking for. I have a k20a2. I know I can easily make more torque by using a k24 bottom end unfortunately rules don’t allow it. I know bolting on I/H/E to help but with the rules I am very limited. I have not found a build that falls within the rules I’m allowed to run. I will post the rules below and hopefully with the vast knowledge on this forum you can point me in the right direction. I don’t have a HP goal I’m trying to reach. I just need usable power and torque on corner exit. Thanks in advance for the help.
BLOCK:
*MUST BE STOCK OEM PRODUCTION. NO AFTERMARKET BLOCKS.
*EFI: BLOCK MUST MATCH DECLAIRED ENGINE MODEL
*NO BLOCK IS TO BE COATED, POLISHED, OR ANY MACHINE WORK EXCEPT WHAT IS LISTED HERE.
*NO MACHINING TO BLOCK FOR AFTERMARKET ROD CLEARANCE.
*BLOCKS CAN NOT BE OFFSET BORED BUT MAY BE SLEEVED WITH ORIGINAL BORE CENTERLINE.
*STOCK OEM TYPE ROD, CAMSHAFT, AND CRANKSHAFT BEARINGS.
*NO MAXIMUM OVERBORE.
*BLOCKS MAY BE DEBORED BUT CAN NOT WEIGH BELOW FACTORY LB/CC.
*AFTERMARKET PULLEYS AND WATERPUMP ALLOWED.
*CRANKCASE EVACUATION SYSTEM TO HEADER ALLOWED.
*AFTERMARKET OIL PAN ALLOWED.

CRANKSHAFTS:
*MUST BE STOCK OEM CAST OR STEEL, NO AFTERMARKET SUCH AS SCAT, LUNATI, ETC. ALLOWED.
*EFI: CRANKSHAFT MUST MATCH DECLAIRED ENGINE MODEL
*STOCK OEM STROKE OF CRANKSHAFT BEING USED MUST BE MAINTAINED WITHIN +/-.010 “
*NO LIGHTENING OR KNIFE EDGING OF THROWS OR COUNTERWEIGHTS.
*MAY POLISH BETWEEN #4 ROD JOURNAL AND #5 MAIN JOURNAL SURFACE AREAS FOR THE PUROSE OF IDENTIFYING. CRACKS MORE EASILY AND ELIMINATING SURFACE STRESS RISERS, NOT TO LIGHTEN.
*ENGINE BALANCING ALLOWED. MUST BE DONE IN STANDARD PRODUCTION MANNER.
*STUD GIRDLE KIT ALLOWED ON MAIN BEARINGS.
*CRANKSHAFTS MAY BE INTERCHANGED AMONG BLOCKS WITHIN THE SAME MAKE WITH NO MACHING NEEDED. DIRECT FIT APPLICATIONS ONLY ON CARBORATED ENGINES ONLY.
*CC MUST BE POSTED ON HOOD AND MUST BE CORRECT FOR YOUR BORE. ENGINES WILL BE P&G TESTED.

CONNECTING RODS:
*ANY STEEL AFTERMARKET OR FACTORY ROD ALLOWED.
ALL EFI CARS; FACTORY LENGTH ROD
*MAY POLISH STOCK OEM RODS
*NO HOLLOW AFTERMARKET RODS
*TOYOTAS AND HONDAS MAY USE H-BEAM RODS IF NO BLOCK MACHING IS NEEDED

PISTONS AND RINGS:
*ANY FLAT TOP PISTON WITH ANY NUMBER OF RING GLANDS ALLOWED.
*MUST HAVE ZERO DECK HEIGHT
*GAS PORTING IN RING GLANDS ONLY.
*ANY STEEL WRISTPIN ALLOWED. NO TITANIUM PINS
*ANY OEM DOME PISTON ENGINE MAY RUN ANY DOME PISTON. THE FLAT PART OF THE DOME PISTON MAY EXTEND
0.010 “ABOVE DECK HEIGHT.
*ANY STYLE RINGS ALLOWED. MINIMUM 2 RINGS PER PISTON

BEARINGS, FASTENERS, AND GASKETS:
*ALL ENGINE BEARINGS MUST BE STOCK OEM TYPE SLEEVE BEARING. NO ROLLER BEARINGS ALLOWED.
*NO TITANIUM FASTENERS ALLOWED. ANY OTHER FASTENER ALLOWED.
*HEAD AND MAIN BEARING STUDS ALLOWED.
*ANY BRAND GASKETS ALLOWED. NO O-RING STYLE SEALING ALLOWED IN PLACE OF HEAD GASKET

CYLINDER HEAD:
*MUST BE STOCK OEM CASTING. NO AFTERMARKET HEADS ALLOWED
*EFI: HEAD MUST MATCH DECLAIRED ENGINE MODEL (HONDA B20 MAY RUN B18 HEAD AND FUEL SYSTEM AT 2300LBS.)
*ANGLE MILLING ALLOWED
*TWO VALVES PER CYLINDER MAXIMUM ON CARBORATED ENGINES
*STAINLESS STEEL OEM CONFIGURATION VALVES AND SWIRL TYPE ALLOWED
*VALVE STEMS MAY NOT BE SMALLER DIAMETER THAN STOCK FOR HEAD BEING USED WITHOUT WEIGHT PENALTY. IF VALVE STEMS ARE SMALLER THAN STOCK DIAMETER THEN COMPETITOR MUST DROP THEIR LEFT SIDE PERCENTAGE FROM 55% TO 53%
*NO TITANIUM VALVES UNLESS FACTORY REPLACEMENT
*VALVES MAY BE BACK CUT 30 DEGREES MAXIMUM
*VALVE STEMS MAY NOT BE CANTED IN HEAD
*NO INTERIOR DE-BURRING, POLISHING, EXTRUDE HONING, OR ACID PORTING ALLOWED.
*PORTS MUST BE STOCK AS CAST FROM OEM
*LIFTER BORE MAY BE MACHINED FOR SOLID ADJUSTERS
*VALVES MUST RETAIN STOCK DIAMETER HEAD
*ANY STEEL OR STAINLESS STEEL RETAINER/KEEPER/ SHIMS ALLOWED. ANY TYPE OF VALVE JOB ALLOWED. VALVE JOB ANGLES OPTIONAL.
*ANY VALVE SPRING COMINATION OR DESIGN
*REINFORCEMENT ON CAM BOSS ALLOWED
*LATE MODEL STOCK STYLE BOWL CUT ALLOWED. 1 ANGLE UNDER THE SEAT, 1 INCH MAXIMUM DEPTH OF CUT BUT DO NOT TOUCH THE VALVE GUIDE. CUT MUST BE INLINE WITH VALVE GUIDE AND MAY NOT BE HAND GROUND.
*NO BLENDING OF BOWL CUT TO PORTS OR ROUNDING EDGES THAT BOWL CUT CREATES.

CAMSHAFTS:
*ANY AFTERMARKET HYDRAULIC OR SOLID CAM ALLOWED. CAM LIFT OPTIONAL WITHOUT ANY PENALTY.
*ADJUSTABLE CAM GEAR ALLOWED
*STOCK OEM STEEL OR DOUBLE ROLLER TIMING CHAIN AND GEARS WITH HEX ADJUSTMENT SLLOWED.
*ANTI PUMP UP HYDRAULIC LIFTERS ALLOWED
*NO LIGHTWEIGHT PUSHROD
*ONLY STOCK OEM ROCKER ARMS AND LIFTERS THAT WAS FACTORY OEM IN THE HEAD BEING USED
*OIL RETURN SCREENS ALLOWED
*LIFTER VALLEY BAFFLES ARE ALLOWED
*LIFTERS MUST BE STOCK SIZE FOR HEAD BEING USED
*ROLLER ROCKER ARMS ALLOWED ON GM ENGINES AND EFI MOTORS WITH FACTORY ROLLER ROCKERS.

INTAKES:
*STOCK OEM FACTORY INTAKES WITH FACTORY PART NUMBER
*FUEL INJECTION INTAKE ALLOWED
*NO HIGH PERFORMANCE AFTERMARKET INTAKE MANIFOLDS
*NO PORTING, POLISHING, COATING, DIPPING, PORT MATCHING, ETC.
*INTAKE MAY ONLY BE MODIFIED TO ACCEPT CARBURETORS. NO OTHER MODIFICATIONS ALLOWED
*CARBURETOR ADAPTER PLATE MUST NOT PROTRUDE DOWN INTO PLENUM
*ALL PARTS MUST BE MASS PRODUCED ITEMS AVAILABLE AS STOCK PRODUCTION OVER THE COUNTER PARTS. NO SPECIAL TESTS OR MARINE TYPE PARTS.
*ONLY NORTH AMERICAN DISTRIBUTED INTAKES ON DOMESTIC. ASIAN ALLOWED ON JAPANESE MAKES ONLY

EFI FUEL SYSTEMS:
*ONLY ENGINES WITHOUT A CARBORATED OPTION MAY USE EFI SYSTEMS
*OEM THROTTLE BODY FOR DECLARED ENGINE MODEL
*NO MACHINING OR ALTERING OF THROTTLE BODY IN ANY WAY
*OEM UNALTERED FUEL RAIL FOR DECLAIRED ENGINE MODEL
*OEM UNALTERED SIZE FUEL INJECTORS FOR DECLAIRED ENGINE MODEL

AIR CLEANER:
EFI: STOCK UNALTERED AIR BOX OR CAN STYLE AIR FILTERS ALLOWED
*EFI: CAN STYLE AIR FILTER NO LARGER THAN 8” ROUND X 8” LONG
*EFI: CAN STYLE AIR FILTER MUST CONNECT TO THROTTLE BODY WITH SEALED DUCT NO LONGER THAN 8 INCHES. MAY NOT DROP BELOW THE CRANK BOLT.

FUEL & FUEL SYSTEM:
*TRACK FUEL OR PUMP GAS ALLOWED. MUST DECLAIR FUEL TYPE PRIOR TO QUALIFYING. NO E85
*NO ADDITIVES
*NO FUEL COOLING DEVICES
*12 GALLON FUEL CELL MAXIMUM
*FUEL CELL MUST BE MOUNTED IN A CAN MADE OF AT LEAST 22 GUAGE STEEL
*FUEL CELL MUST BE MOUNTED IN CENTER OF TRUNK AREA BETWEEN THE FRAME RAILS. NO MORE THAN 2” DEVIATION FROM CENTER OF REAR OF TREADWIDTH.
*FUEL CELL MUST BE PROTECTED WITH A SUFFICIENT AMOUNT OF STRUCTURE, INCLUDING A BAR BELOW AND TO THE REAR OF THE CAN.
*FUEL CELL VENTING HIGH AND TO THE DRIVERS SIDE RECCOMENDED
*MAY RUN HIGH PERFORMANCE MECHANICAL FUEL PUMP OR ELECTRIC. IF ELECTRIC PUMP IS USED, YOU MUST HAVE ROLL OVER VALVE AND SAFETY SWITCH. THIS MUST BE APPROVED BY TECH PERSON.
*FUEL WILL BE CHECKED RANDOMLY
*EFI CARS CAN RUN FACTORY FUEL TANK IN FACTORY LOCATION ONLY.
ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS:
*BATTERY MUST BE SECURELY MOUNTED AND ENCLOSED TO GUARD THE DRIVER FROM SPILLS OR EXPLOSIONS
*BATTERIES MUST BE MOUNTED IN TRUNK OR THROUGH FLOORBOARD BUT NO LOWER THAN FRAME RAILS
*ONLY ONE BATTERY ALLOWED IN CAR
*ONLY 12 VOLT ELECTRICAL SYSTEM ALLOWED
STOCK TYPE COILS ONLY
*EFI: MUST RUN OEM IGNITION AND ELECTRICAL SYSTEM FOR DECLAIRED ENGINE MODEL (WIRE HARENESS, COIL PACKS, ECT.)
*EFI: OEM STYLE ECU FOR DECLAIRED ENGINE MODEL OR STAND UNITS ALLOWED. NO IN RACE ADJUSTABILITY BY DRIVER OF CREW.
*MSD, ACCELL, MALLORY, ETC. INTERNAL PARTS, COILS, OR MODULES ARE ALLOWED, STOCK TYPE ONLY
*NO MAGNETOS
*NO MULTI SPARK DISCHARGE BOXES (MSD) ALLOWED
*POINTS TYPE ALLOWED
*NO FULL AFTERMARKET DISTRIBUTOR ALLOWED
*NO ADJUSTABLE TIMING CONTROLS
*NO TRACTION CONTROL DEVICES
*ALL WIRING IN CAR MUST BE SECURLY INSULATED AND FASTENED
*ANY SPARK PLUG WIRES ALLOWED
*ANY SPARK PLUGS ALLOWED
*NO DUAL POINT DISTRIBUTORS ALLOWED
*MELS DISTRIBUTORS ALLOWED
*MELS OR MSD TYPE REV LIMITERS ALLOWED (MUST BE MOUNTED IN PLAIN VIEW)

EXHAUST SYSTEM:
*ANY STOCK OR AFTERMARKET EXHAUST MANIFOLD OR HEADER ALLOWED
*4 INTO 1 AND TRI-Y STYLE ALLOWED
@LotusElise
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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That's a fair and a no-high-price competition basis (y). So the playground are: pistons, intake, header, exhaust, some areas of the head, intake manifold choice, camshafts, tuning. I am convinced this is at least enough to reach 280 hp/180 ftlb's at flywheel, so far I understand the rules.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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That would be a good goal for me to reach. Like I was talking with @Them Witches if I can make that much HP/Torque with the proper gearing the car should be what I’m looking for.
Yes the right gear ratio setup is the most important fact: easy to specify, easy to get on it, but it is the last step in the process as torque curve must be known as well as chassis air drag to calculate the demanded torque and engine speed to match the right gear ratio for the available torque bandwidth and height. With the stock IM the pillars for peak torque and peak engine speed are more or less fixed. So I assume project time is a good to know variable. What is your aim for this?

I think budget and local machining capacities are limiting. What do you have for this available?
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
My goal is to be done by the first of next year. Budget is not a factor in this. The racing season is winding down this year. The car is a Bare chassis at this point. While the engine is getting worked on I will continue to build my roll cage and install the suspension. Everything will be brand new. I don’t want to be in a rush. I want it to be right. I have been successful in the past with other cars. Last thing I want to do is throw this one together and not live up to the standard I have set for myself. And as far as gearing goes each track I go to will be different banking, straightaway lengthy, turn radius and length. My home track will be 4/10 of a mile. Some others may be 3/8 to 1/2.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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I want it to be right. I have been successful in the past with other cars
That sounds like perfect background. Let me work out a concept for this engine within a engine simulation approach, I will come back with the torque and power graph out of that based on measurements of most of the components. Normally the simulation is within 4 ftlb's on the first iteration for simple NA setups, so that will be a good start point to talk about.
 

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17.702 took the pole here last race in the class I’m running. The late model stocks(V8) Josh Berry who drives for Dale Jr was on the pole with a 16.067
I was spot on with those lap times. Langley Speedway is close to me.. Buddy of mine ran a 18.2 lap in 2001 Integra Type R with a SC K20, we has been racing for over 30 years though.. he actually had someone in his way so he would have hit 17's

V8 stock cars run that same time at Langley, so the tracks must be identical
 

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That's a fair and a no-high-price competition basis (y). So the playground are: pistons, intake, header, exhaust, some areas of the head, intake manifold choice, camshafts, tuning. I am convinced this is at least enough to reach 280 hp/180 ftlb's at flywheel, so far I understand the rules.
200ft-flbs at the flywheel good lord that is awesome. I need to have you design me an engine. Like I could afford it hahaha
 

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@Them Witches thanks for all your help. I feel confident I can make the car turn and get the gearing right. I have never built a Honda engine and wanted to make sure I got the most potential out of the engine. Your advice has been priceless.
you are welcome brother. I am here to help, KBuilt is another good one to talk with too.
 

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Can you use water injection? Water meth even? Cant see anything that expressively rules it out, you'd have to inject pre throttle body.

You should be able to reduce IATs and get as much knock resistance as E85 so should free up a bit more power throughout the rev range?
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Can you use water injection? Water meth even? Cant see anything that expressively rules it out, you'd have to inject pre throttle body.
It ex- or includes following:

rule book said:
*TRACK FUEL OR PUMP GAS ALLOWED. MUST DECLAIR FUEL TYPE PRIOR TO QUALIFYING. NO E85
*NO ADDITIVES
What is the meaning of no additives? Of the fuel or of the fuel-air-mixture? I see no localized injector position, but fuel spec. If you use water, it is no fuel, but added to the fresh mixture. According race guy reading, that mean water can be used as it is not explicit forbidden, but I would clarify it before.
 
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