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Discussion Starter #1
Ok guys just got my NA K20Z1 build together on my 06 type s. I've dropped endless amounts of money into this motor and am now highly disappointed in the numbers the car has put down. Car put down 210WHP/131TQ on a mustang dyno. Those are numbers people are hitting with just bolt ons and a tune so something is up with this motor/tune. I sent the block out to get sleeved so when I eventually do my supercharged aftercooled setup I didn't have to break it down again. I'm leaning towards the ring end gaps being set for a boosted application and the valve lash being a little tight is where I may have lost power. The ring end gaps are .019 top, .023 second ring, .015 oil rings. Valve lash was set to .30mm COLD, I know Kelford calls for .30mm hot but until I solve this power issue I'm not getting my hopes up in gaining 30WHP+ strictly on the valve lash, maybe an extra 10whp max from redoing lash. Anyways the mods are:
4 Piston Racing Pro 156 ported head
Kelford 179-B2 cams, exhaust degreed in to 103 BTDC
Supertech Valves, Supertech 92psi springs
Ported RRC Manifold , ported matched runners to head, TB inlet Ported to 70mm
Blox 70mm Throttle body
Deatschewerks 600cc injectors
Club RSX/Private label Race header
Injen Cold Air Intake
CP Pistons 11.5:1 Pistons
Manley H Beam rods
Darton MID sleeves 86mm
K-Tuned 3 inch Oval exhaust

Please save the smart ass comments/criticism to yourself, I have been a Subaru/Hyundai tech for years so I have more than enough experience. From numbers I've seen regardless of dyno manufacturer this setup should easily be good for 260WHP. So my question is, where am I losing the power? Ive compression and leak down tested and my numbers are 170psi on cyl. 1&3 and 160psi on 2&4. On wet compression test the comp numbers jump to 205-215. I would say the rings are shot but I am not burning oil at all and this thing sees 8800 RPM daily. Also on a leakdown test I am getting 0% leakage on all cylinders with the motor hot, and this was done on a separate day from the wet compression test, that way there was no oil in the cylinder to throw off the results. No oil in the cylinder when I take the plugs out and plugs are dry mocha brown colored. So what experienced engine builder has some good insight for me? I was thinking of adjusting lash and seeing if it changed the dry compression significantly. Car has been E-tuned by one of the most reputable tuners on the east coast, who also suggested possibly valve lash having to do with it. Anyone with some good knowledge and insight feel free to chime in.
 

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At what rpms did you get torque and power peaks?
What fuel?
SAE?

Also, your statement "Car put down 210WHP/131TQ. Those are numbers people are hitting with just bolt ons and a tune so something is up with this motor/tune" I don´t think it applies to a Mustang, where a stock K20Z3 will put down 160whp on an unmolested dyno reading. You´re 50whp over that, which is not bad at all, although still short of maybe 10-15whp. Hard to guess where is the lost power, different part combinations don´t always yield expected results, trty the simple stuff first, a different CAI, another exhaust manifold, maybe even a different tuner?

http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/civic-si/277516-08-stock-si-dyno-mustang-dyno.html
 

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I'm sorry but Im not going to keep taking shots in the dark, for me to swap parts like that would put me further away from the direction I should be going. I agree with you that a may be partially the tune but from the dyno graph for an etune the torque curve is pretty steady. Ill find the graph and upload a pic of it. 260whp is the low side of the number too, i've seen larger gains then that. Also the thread you posted, several people saying his 160whp number is low even for a mustang. I've typically seen anywhere from 170-185whp on a mustang. The car ran a 14.0 at 101 with a 2.12 60ft 2nd run down the track. Heard it time and time again with a good driver in a 200whp rsx/si should run low 14's high 13's....well that enforces the fact even more that the car is not making what it should. Those numbers are corrected (210/131) and I'm running 93 octane. I have a buddy whos running kelford A's with rbc and bolt ons and on and Land and Sea dyno hes making 244whp. Im sorry but I don't see a 34hp difference between two dynos in the same area code. Also he has a stock block/head minus the kelford A cams. So for me to put down 34whp less than someone with LESS MODS points to something being up, either way I need to get to the bottom of it.
 

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Just curious have you actually seen a dyno tune chart showing 260whp with 11.5 compression? And any kind of camshafts? Especially on a small K20 motor? The power you're making especially on a low reading mustang dyno is very much in line with a typical K20
 

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imo does seem low. i had k20z1 i.h.e. ported rbc/70mm tb crwoer stage 2 cams made 242/161 on a mustang dyno. similar to your build but you have a 4 piston head also.

with that said all dyno's read different. redo valve lash and have it tuned on a dynojet if one is available in your area. you may have to start swapping/checking individual parts to narrow it down to what is holding you back.
 

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Ok guys just got my NA K20Z1 build together on my 06 type s. I've dropped endless amounts of money into this motor and am now highly disappointed in the numbers the car has put down. Car put down 210WHP/131TQ on a mustang dyno. Those are numbers people are hitting with just bolt ons and a tune so something is up with this motor/tune. I sent the block out to get sleeved so when I eventually do my supercharged aftercooled setup I didn't have to break it down again. I'm leaning towards the ring end gaps being set for a boosted application and the valve lash being a little tight is where I may have lost power. The ring end gaps are .019 top, .023 second ring, .015 oil rings. Valve lash was set to .30mm COLD, I know Kelford calls for .30mm hot but until I solve this power issue I'm not getting my hopes up in gaining 30WHP+ strictly on the valve lash, maybe an extra 10whp max from redoing lash. Anyways the mods are:
4 Piston Racing Pro 156 ported head
Kelford 179-B2 cams, exhaust degreed in to 103 BTDC
Supertech Valves, Supertech 92psi springs
Ported RRC Manifold , ported matched runners to head, TB inlet Ported to 70mm
Blox 70mm Throttle body
Deatschewerks 600cc injectors
Club RSX/Private label Race header
Injen Cold Air Intake
CP Pistons 11.5:1 Pistons
Manley H Beam rods
Darton MID sleeves 86mm
K-Tuned 3 inch Oval exhaust

Please save the smart ass comments/criticism to yourself, I have been a Subaru/Hyundai tech for years so I have more than enough experience. From numbers I've seen regardless of dyno manufacturer this setup should easily be good for 260WHP. So my question is, where am I losing the power? Ive compression and leak down tested and my numbers are 170psi on cyl. 1&3 and 160psi on 2&4. On wet compression test the comp numbers jump to 205-215. I would say the rings are shot but I am not burning oil at all and this thing sees 8800 RPM daily. Also on a leakdown test I am getting 0% leakage on all cylinders with the motor hot, and this was done on a separate day from the wet compression test, that way there was no oil in the cylinder to throw off the results. No oil in the cylinder when I take the plugs out and plugs are dry mocha brown colored. So what experienced engine builder has some good insight for me? I was thinking of adjusting lash and seeing if it changed the dry compression significantly. Car has been E-tuned by one of the most reputable tuners on the east coast, who also suggested possibly valve lash having to do with it. Anyone with some good knowledge and insight feel free to chime in.
Similar setup to me, Except I got 237whp (dynojet). Funny enough you went down the same road I went. I actually built a 2nd motor after seeing the compression test jump from 160 to 210 from dry to wet. I also had a Massive Vtec dip and lean spot that we couldn't tune out. I swapped Cams, intake manifold and header and haven't started the car yet.
 

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Hmm wonder if your header has a effect on it also, number definitely is low .especially with that 4piston head .

Are you able to use full 50° vtc with those cams?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Hmm wonder if your header has a effect on it also, number definitely is low .especially with that 4piston head .

Are you able to use full 50° vtc with those cams?
No, checked the v2p when the exhaust was degreed in. Clears intake at about .082 inch at 40 degrees. Had a kingmotorsports 35 degree made to be safe, but just like the tuner said about the oem 50, hes seen it go slightly further in kpro. Ive noticed in the datalogs it never exceeds 40 degrees which shouldnt be an issue, tuner said they wont really make power past 30 anyway. Keep in mind this is one of the most reputable tuners on the east coast, if not one of the best in the county.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
He's in PA, 1 of 2 reputable shops it could be. Reason being Im not disclosing his name because lots of people could care less to look in depth to the issue and rather blame it on the tune/tuner.
 

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I think your 260whp Easy statement is a bit optimistic. Realistically you are only running a half point of compression more than stock and have a ported head w/ stage 2 cams, bolt ons and tuning. If you're on 93 pump gas you're gonna make even less, but E85 I guess I could see 260+ considering I'm at 250whp w/ a stock motor and Drag Cartel 2.2 cams...probably 250whp would be a little more realistic number, if you were running 12.5:1 compression maybe I'd think otherwise.
 

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By etune, do you mean that you just had someone send you a map to work for you engine combination? If so, then just get it properly tuned on a dyno. God himself couldnt do a proper remote tune without knowing what the afr's are at any given rpm/load cell.

Or you could just sell me the kelford cams if thats what you're worried about.
 

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No, checked the v2p when the exhaust was degreed in. Clears intake at about .082 inch at 40 degrees. Had a kingmotorsports 35 degree made to be safe, but just like the tuner said about the oem 50, hes seen it go slightly further in kpro. Ive noticed in the datalogs it never exceeds 40 degrees which shouldnt be an issue, tuner said they wont really make power past 30 anyway. Keep in mind this is one of the most reputable tuners on the east coast, if not one of the best in the county.
You won't need more than 30 VTC for those cams. Maybe 35. I've used them in a couple of motors and I never see significant gains beyond 30.

Your combo feels like a 235-250hp Dynojet motor to me. There are so few Mustang plots of K series out there that it's hard to get a read on it that way.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Evans? If so, I've heard nothing but great things about him.

Numbers do seem very low from what I've seen while being on this site.

Yes, i did not spend all that money to go with a no name tuner, agreed, ive heard only great things, thats why I chose him. Im not crazy for expecting those numbers, so please just refrain from posting on this thread if you want to argue about power #'s. Ive seen what similar set ups make, and set ups that arent nearly as modded. Myself, along with my tuner, and several other respectable K builders know these are terribly low numbers. Im not here to argue, just to get to the bottom of this.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
By etune, do you mean that you just had someone send you a map to work for you engine combination? If so, then just get it properly tuned on a dyno. God himself couldnt do a proper remote tune without knowing what the afr's are at any given rpm/load cell.

Or you could just sell me the kelford cams if thats what you're worried about.
Remote/etune by one of the best in the country. And his exact words were "Those numbers seem incredibly low, even on a mustang dyno"
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Similar setup to me, Except I got 237whp (dynojet). Funny enough you went down the same road I went. I actually built a 2nd motor after seeing the compression test jump from 160 to 210 from dry to wet. I also had a Massive Vtec dip and lean spot that we couldn't tune out. I swapped Cams, intake manifold and header and haven't started the car yet.
Id like to see the results when you get them.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Doing research on the kelford a & b cams found this dyno of similar setup to mine BUT with the 179-A cams and stock flowing head/unported making 229/146 on a MUSTANG. So even the kelford a's are outdoing me by 20whp!!! But for the most part you guys would rather shoot me down then look into it. Well heres the proof. SAME manufacturer, SAME type of dyno, LESS modified k20 making 20WHP more on less aggressive cams. Please explain to me where Im crazy thinking my car at the very least should be landing 240whp on a mustang dyno...that's not even including the porting of the head.

6th post down, if you want mod list go back in the thread. Basic bolt ons, stage 1 cams BUT no head porting.

http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=101776&highlight=bad+kelford+cams&page=16

I do have to mention I did notice the pulse plate holes BOTH never lined up when set to TDC. Both are about a 1/4 off in the hole, leading me in the direction that this may be another bad set of kelfords, MAY. Ive talked to several people about this and they have mixed feelings on it, some say that you have to grind down the pin and realign it, some say don't touch it, it won't affect anything...
 
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