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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi all, hope this is in the correct sub forum as it covers numerous different topics, it might take a minute, but i would like to give you guys a bit of background.
Or, jump to post #2 to cut out all the :bs: and get to the point!

This is where the sponging begins, though i am asking these questions on behalf of a few people who own a certain niche model of Honda Civic.

The car in question is the (EV1) Civic Type S, 7th gen European 5 door model, that runs a K20A3 motor, the same version as the USDM Si (157hp 132lb ft)

I realise that the A3 is not a favorite amongst the K community, and understand why (within the confines of being pretty new to all this)
Also, being as it is, a five door variant, anyone who has read thus far, is probably wondering why anybody would want to mod such a car.

The reasons are simple, the Type S represents compromise between power and practicality, and other owners i am in contact with relish this, but wonder if more power could be extracted to give this underestimated car more edge.

Unlike the US, where the K20A3 featured in a couple of prominent models, it has passed relatively unnoticed in the UK, and almost no aftermarket parts or tuning are available.
I am aware, that although an "eco" variant, the A3 does have potential, though i realise, not as much as other K series motors.

So to business, i knew very little about all this a week ago, apart from the engine was at the front of the car! so a google crash course later...

As i understand, the compression ratio of the A3 lends itself well to running forced induction, obviously an effective means of gaining power.
If such a setup were tuned sympathetically, and retained the 12 Valve operation the cam configuration gives at low revs, then relatively good urban mpg could be combined with useful amounts of power.

I gather to achieve this, and maximise potential of other additions, a program such as K-Pro is essential.
This is where the first problem occurs, the 2004-05 EV1 is equipped with VSA and cruise control, governed by a drive by wire throttle (oh dear)

The system uses the same components as the Accord and TSX, and though K-Pro is not compatible with their management systems, the Civic uses a PNF-G11 unit.
Hondata say PNF ECU's are compatible, but i asked them about compatibility in this case, and they said it was a no go.

I am not convinced, i would be willing to lose VSA and cruise, and convert to a cable throttle, and i figured if the cable TB sensors were correctly wired, K-Pro might work with an Si base map to begin tuning with a FI setup in place.

I read Hondatas article on the TSX engine tune/swap experiment, and though VSA was lost, the combined VSA/ABS modulator still provided ABS functions.
The main issues were, functionality of the instrument cluster and AC was lost, but i put this down to incompatibility of the ECU with K-Pro, and i hope that with my PNF unit such problems might not arise.

Couple this with the fact that my transmission and gear speed sensor appear to be of the low frequency type, and i think K-Pro might work after all.

I would love some expert opinions on whether or not these deductions might be correct.

The next issue is, that the first and final drive gear ratios differ between the Si and the EV1, if the car were to be boosted, i understand that may cause a problem with K-Pro's "boost by gear" mapping interface.

If anyone has read this far, i would be grateful of any assistance you could provide, many thanks.

James.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Okay, that was a bit much to take in sorry!

Just to re cap:

Car: 7th gen Civic, K20A3 motor, DBW throttle, PNF-G11 ECU, low frequency transmission.

Question 1: With a cable throttle conversion, would K-Pro be compatible for mapping a FI setup, and keep the OEM instrument cluster working?

Question 2: If all that works and a base map for the USDM Si was used, would the different ratios of 1st and final drive gears cause issues?
Particularly with boost by gear (i'm sure i read K-Pro could help re calibrate the speedo)
Thanks!

James.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Ok, i understand this forum is more for people who are far more knowledgeable than me, and are looking to maximise the potential of their motors.

In view of that, i can see why this idea is not really very inspiring to you guys!
However, as weird as it may seem, i dont think my goal of having usable real world power, and keeping decent economy is a bad thing to aim for.

The main problem is, it seems no one has done this before with the EV1 in the UK, so all this is just speculation, and i really was hoping for some assurance from the experts that it may work :)whiner:!)

Hondata themselves installed K-Pro on a car (the TSX) that uses the same DBW components, by converting to a cable TB setup.

Given that the RBB(?) ECU is not K-Pro compatible, dash cluster and AC functions were lost (i assume VSA and cruise are related to DBW, so they would automatically be lost with a cable TB conversion)

My car uses a PNF though, does that not mean K-Pro should work?! Hondata list the PNF as compatible, does the suffix -G11 mean it wont?

The units now on sale for the EP3 Si are listed as PNF-A11, and i thought the letter "A" or "G" was just a region code, Hondata state: "The last 3 characters are broken down into 3 parts. "A" generally is used for US ECUs. "G" is European, and "J" is Japanese."

It seems to me that my ECU might accept K-Pro and keep my dash and AC working, ABS still worked on the TSX that Hondata K-Pro'd.

Please give me some opinions folks, this is driving me crazy, and i want to let other EV1 owners know what might be possible.
Thanks!

James
 

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You will probably need a custom conversion harness if you use one of the usual kpro ECUs (RSX, CRV, Element, etc). The TSX was eventually made to work with Kpro via a piggy back set up running two ECUs.

The simplest method for you might be to buy a USDM EP3 ECU, have it Kpro'd, and see if it works with your dash harness.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Hey there! and thanks, i was hoping to keep my cars original PNF unit, im pretty sure some of the USDM Si's use PNF's too.

I had a quick email exchange with Mike at K-Tuned (who seemed a really nice guy) but he said he didnt think their harnesses would work for a Civic.
I suppose the K-Tuned harnesses have RBB pinout connections, but im sure my cars stock ECU should be K-Pro compatible anyway.

Hondata think that the car would not function if K-Pro'd, but surely, as the DBW driver unit is separate, and my ECU code is listed on Hondata's website with the Si units, a cable TB conversion would work fine.

I was thinking of trying to get another PNF-G11 cheap, so i could try it out.
Thanks again, im over the moon to get a reply! :dance:
 

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BB Baboonface said:
It seems to me that my ECU might accept K-Pro and keep my dash and AC working, ABS still worked on the TSX that Hondata K-Pro'd.
Sometimes you just have to go for it and quit waiting around for someone to give you an answer. Yours is an unusual scenario that the overwhelming majority here are likely unfamiliar with.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hey bud! i think you are right, i am booked in for a service with TDI North, a well respected bunch in the UK.
They are going to look into ways and means, i have a long way to go before this idea gets the green light, as money is not plentiful at the moment.

K-Pro is not the only thing out there anyway so there are options, i must thank you once again, it is a boost (pun intended?!) having someone else's input in any case.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Ha ha! right again my friend! I am starting to come to that conclusion based on what i have found so far.
If had bought a pre facelift model EV1 there would be no drive by wire issues, but they look pretty bad in 5 door form.

When i have one of these ideas, i have to at least see the theory through to exhaust all possibilities, i am sure you understand.
A practical body shell with decent economy, that can wipe the smug look off an aggressive tailgaters face would be fun though!
 

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I read your post in an English accent... :)

I'm wondering if FlashPro would work on the EV1... Is the ECU related to either the TSX or 06+ Civic Si? Those are both DBW cars as well...
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I read your post in an English accent... :)
:lmao: Ha ha! good call, i wonder if seemed more or less coherent?! :)

I wondered about Flashpro, but the car is more like a 02-05 Si, with a DBW driver unit, and VSA/ABS modulator like a CL9 Accord/TSX.

My Civic has a PNF ECU as does the USDM Si, but i dont think it is Flashpro compatible, and K-Pro wont work with DBW, i dont think i could fit an 8th gen Civic, or AP2 S2000 ECU to my car either :thud:

I am looking into other options right now, such as a dual ECU setup, or cable TB conversion with a plug and play unit from someone like AEM or Haltech.
Hondata seem to have pretty definite applications, so maybe something a bit more versatile is needed!

Thanks for the input bud, i need all the help i can get!
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Aah screw it! I reckon im going to go K24A3 all motor, with some sexy cams and run it in my battered shell with dual ECU setup, exhaust, and intake.

When the time is right, i hope to buy a nice 1.6 EX donor car with heated leathers, get decent suspension, brakes, and rims, and swap the motor and ancillaries across.

Dont know if the 1.6 D series loom is able to support a K24 motor though?

Im guessing most parts are fairly interchangeable suspension wise, think i would need to change all the brake lines to run a UKDM EP3 ABS modulator, and i would like to keep my front fog lights, maybe run the cabling to the "blank" switch location near the mirror adjustment switches?

Okay, this is a motor forum, so maybe not all appropriate subject matter, sorry.
Now i just need a shid load of money to fall from the sky!...
 

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Aah screw it! I reckon im going to go K24A3 all motor, with some sexy cams and run it in my battered shell with dual ECU setup, exhaust, and intake.

When the time is right, i hope to buy a nice 1.6 EX donor car with heated leathers, get decent suspension, brakes, and rims, and swap the motor and ancillaries across.

Dont know if the 1.6 D series loom is able to support a K24 motor though?

Im guessing most parts are fairly interchangeable suspension wise, think i would need to change all the brake lines to run a UKDM EP3 ABS modulator, and i would like to keep my front fog lights, maybe run the cabling to the "blank" switch location near the mirror adjustment switches?

Okay, this is a motor forum, so maybe not all appropriate subject matter, sorry.
Now i just need a shid load of money to fall from the sky!...
There is no need to tun K24a3 with dual ECU setup, just buy TSX ECU 07-08 and FlashPro for Acura TSX 04-06. Even with one PRB ECU and K-Pro you can manage all if change TB to cable instead DBW. So your choice K-Pro or FlashPro :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Wow! Thanks bud (i would insert a smilie here, but the K20 ones are pretty unique, and i wouldnt want to get the wrong one ha ha!)

Do you think the instrument cluster would function correctly with flash pro?
I know that a K-Pro'd ECU can run any K motor, but its just the other stuff...

The car has a PNF, but Hondata thought it would not run properly on K-Pro after a cable conversion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
Just wanted to (pointlessly) update on this thread.

Got hold of specific service manual wiring diagrams and such for my car (Civic EV1 Type S VSA)

These confirmed my suspicion that Honda had used systems very much like the CL9 for DBW and VSA.
This included the yaw sensor under the seat, and an odd hybrid inlet manifold like a cross between an RBB and a PRB.
The VSA wiring permeates through loads of systems, and only total removal of such a system will pass UK regulations (grrr!)

Did look at how the CL9 owners had got K-Pro (i meant Flash Pro) installed, but the problem was the fact that the CL9 transmission is high frequency, and the EV1 is low frequency so the chance of the gauge cluster working seemed pretty slim.

So yeah, not looking good.

Could have gone for a preface EV1 without the DBW buuuut...




:puke: Nah! It looks like an old mans hat.

Sooo, looking at UK parts sites i found that during the facelift Honda brought out some facelift cars that still run a cable throttle, conventional PNF ECU, and another throwback being that it uses 4x100 PCD hubs too.

So i got me one :new_slayer:

Had to get rid of the 15" rims, and being short of funds got some cheap Meister R reps, still need some lows though:







Still a hated 5 door, but i love the hate, and as it already runs a K20A3, the foundation is set for something with more potential to be fitted.
Already sent a picture of the guts of the ECU to Hondata and they think there is a good chance it is K-Pro compatible, still need money, but its a start!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Took a massive gamble on this new car, as funds are pretty low, now no one wants to buy my cosmic grey Civic, and the motor in the silver car sounds rough as a bears arse (ass!)

Needs clearances checking for sure, the cam train rattles like a bitch, hope it aint a TCT or VTC problem (got a stamped full Honda service history too, apparently :coleman: )
Sort of tickling/fizzing sound when the throttle is used under load too, and a slight judder or hesitation sometimes, coupled with a thud like the whole motor is shifting about.

Reading around it seems it could be any number of things, and probably all of them!
The plan was to add a Gruppe M style ram air intake, exhaust, header and K-Pro and run like that for a while before swapping to a K24. If this motor is dying that could be a biiiiig problem. Grrrrr!
 

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I'd totally rock one of those if they had them stateside!

You could attempt to swap a k24a1 in there with 310cc injectors on the standard ecu map... Fuel tables aren't 100%, causing it to run a little lean, but there are "hacks" that can be done to help remedy that ;-)
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I'd totally rock one of those if they had them stateside!

You could attempt to swap a k24a1 in there with 310cc injectors on the standard ecu map... Fuel tables aren't 100%, causing it to run a little lean, but there are "hacks" that can be done to help remedy that ;-)
Read about folks doing that, might not be the perfect setup, but better than a non runner!
Main problem is the CRV only came with a K20 in the UK which sucks, there is a local outfit that imports "quality" JDM motors, but read some horror stories about the "quality" of their parts.
If the block and head were okay then it might be good for a re-build at least, but £1400 for a spray painted block with a cardboard HG is pretty steep! haha!

Anyway, many thanks for the suggestion, and glad you like the 5 door too :)
Its sort of a giant Fit, no one really touches them here so it should be pretty unusual, hence the thread title.
 

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At £1400, I wouldn't even dream of the risk... We can pick them up for $700-1000 USD all day long.

Sorry to hear it only comes in the k20... but that may help an idea of mine, thanks!

Are there any locally sourced vehicles over there that have k24a1/a4/a8s?
 
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