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Hello,

this is my first post so a little introduction.
Im Dave and I do 'autocross' here in the Netherlands, maybe you would call it dirt track racing or in the UK it's similar to autograss.

I'm here as a Honda noob so excuse me if i say some stupid things.

Here in The Netherlands I do autocross with a special build buggy in a 2.0L class were the engine displacement is limited to 2000cc, N/A engines.

At the moment I have a vw/audi engine but the problem is that it's not powerfull and reliable enough to keep up with the fast guys with there Hondas and Fords.

So im trying to do some research to see if i can build a good solid but also powerfull engine.

I've talked to some engine tuners here and they come up with some offers and prices of a proper engine wich is maximum tuned but my question is.

Im talking about numbers around 290/300hp and 255/260nm torque

Do you think it's possible to build a powerfull engine with the right parts by yourself ? And wich parts should I use or who is experienced with these engines and can tell me more about tuning them.

Maybe i sound a bit stupid now but I know this is not easy and it's very expensive. But I know what it cost me to let build a powerfull engine by a tuner but i don't know what it cost to build one by myself and that's what i'm trying to find out.

And i hope that you can help me with that
 

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I know this is not easy and it's very expensive. But I know what it cost me to let build a powerfull engine by a tuner but i don't know what it cost to build one by myself and that's what i'm trying to find out.

And i hope that you can help me with that
Before we go down the path of setups what is the budget for this engine build?

Getting the 2 Liter k series near 300 hp is expensive. Getting to 260hp is very achievable with shelf parts combinations.

Which fuel will you be able to run for this class of racing?

01' MR2 K20 swap, crazy mods to come
 

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Discussion Starter #3
My budget is around $15.000.
I hope you can get close to the 300 with that budget.

Now I have around 275bhp so I only want to build one if I can get a real decent upgrade in HP and torque.

There are no fuel regulations but I prefer 102 octane because I can get it at my local gas station
 

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My budget is around $15.000.
I hope you can get close to the 300 with that budget.

Now I have around 275bhp so I only want to build one if I can get a real decent upgrade in HP and torque.

There are no fuel regulations but I prefer 102 octane because I can get it at my local gas station
Contact 4piston Racing and have them build you an engine. They should definitely be able to work with you within that budget and if you have that fuel available.

An aggressive, properly speced camshaft along with 14:1+ CR pistons could definitely put you north of 280WHP with one of their CNC ported/polished cylinder heads.

Talk to Luke from 4 Piston and he should have some ideas for you. Also, be sure you pair it with a transmission that has a 4.7 FD and a good LSD (look into Geardriven or Synchrotech for remanufactured/upgraded Transmissions).

Let me know if you have any other questions on what a good setup would be, I've been doing a tonne of research on this lately for my own build.
 

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I second Chase EG's recommendation. They can build what you are looking for and their quality is second to none. I know they built a 320 or 330hp kseries 2.0L recently.

If you were allowed to run the k24 id say you could do this yourself but with a k20 id recommend utilizing team 4p.

01' MR2 K20 swap, crazy mods to come
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for the reply

I'll contact 4p and ask them for advice. I hope that they can supply me with a complete kit for an engine so I can build it myself and save up the build cost so i can make maximum use of my budget for a engine as powerful as possible.
But if its really specialist work to build it, i would let them build it

The transmission is no problem because I have a Sadev SL90-20 gearbox.

Its a engine for a RWD buggy
 

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Hej Dave, welcome in the Club.
Just for info: You will have a difficult time reaching that much tq.. I have an engine that has been built, by a "pro" (not me), N/A close to 310 HP, but the torque is 'only' around 220 ft/lb.
K24A2 block, with k20A2 head (Frankenstein)/K24 has better torque, K20 flows better
Comp raised to 12.5:1
Stg 4 cams
a bunch of other stuff aswell
These engines are not torque monsters, unless you use a s/c or t/c...
BUT: the (your) buggy is not heavy, or? I would think 220 ft/lb would be a good number? (Not sure what that is in Nm...)
Tot Ziens
Mounty
 

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Ive been in touch with 4piston racing and I think they can make an engine that suits me. Now im looking into it what my options are and if i can make it whitin my budget.

And according to my calculations 220 lb/ft is around 300nm wich is huuuuge for a 2.0L. Im looking for around 190 lb/ft and a wide powerband and not only peak power.

The setup 4p could make would cost me around $17k wich is not really inside my budget because of the shipping cost and import taxes i need to pay and then i need a dyno session wich makes it more than $20k. But this is for the top end engine with ITB's and a custom header and iron LA sleeves. So im looking where its the best place so safe some money without compromsing the power so much.

I was thinking maybe itbs that are cheaper than 2K or the use of OEM sleeves ? And without the custom header because i have a friend that makes headers for a living
 

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Hej again, Dave.
I would say, you DO NOT need the sleeves, unless you are going to boost the engine, or go radical with your compression (14:1 or higher). Up to 12,5(ish):1 the stock block can handle, perhaps add a cylinder wall liner (Supertech for example, which I have/never been used) for some added strength. (You would probably have to have the cylinders rehoned to make sure they are straight/inline).
If you are interested, i have a built K24 here, Block and Head, no accessories/auxilaries (No pumps, a few sensors are still installed). Hit me up with a PM and I can give you the infos, and pictures if you'd like. If you want pics from inside the engine, i would have to see about borrowing/buying a small boroscope/endoscope, because I really do not want to take it apart.
Greetz
Mounty/Markus

Oh Crap: Just read/saw that you are looking for a K20.. sorry, my bad..
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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...autocross with a special build buggy in a 2.0L class were the engine displacement is limited to 2000cc, N/A engines...Im talking about numbers around 290/300hp and 255/260nm torque...My budget is around $15.000...
Possible :D. I just running a 86.5x86 engine project to find the limits of the K20 engine VE over revving band-wise.

There are also here in Europe race K20 engine builders around, no need to go oversea (r-motion, quintec-motorenbau, ECU-Performance, TDI, ...masses more, class ready or customized setups, no need to go oversea). If you want to build it yourself with of the shelf parts you would need someone on your side with building experience, as in that area a lot of tiny details has to be considered a un-experienced K20 builder likely don't know (bearing clearances, oil squirter handling, oil galley modification for homogenous pressure distribution at higher engine speeds, limits of stock parts like pumps, ...a.s.o.)

If you ask the same question about which builder on Hondapower.de you get for sure a better answer than mine.

Markus
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Ive been in touch with 4piston racing and I think they can make an engine that suits me...The setup 4p could make would cost me around $17k wich is not really inside my budget because of the shipping cost and import taxes i need to pay and then i need a dyno session wich makes it more than $20k...
:popcorn:
I was thinking maybe itbs that are cheaper than 2K or the use of OEM sleeves ? And without the custom header because i have a friend that makes headers for a living
Ask e.g. ClockwiseMotion in the UK for ITB's. Sure you can use OEM sleeves if you can keep the engine class like. A lot of racers run OEM sleeves if no rebore is needed. A hone process has to be clarified before if the piston to liner clearance has the capacity to do it.

Markus
 

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yes 4Piston got a 86mm x 86mm 2.0L past 300HP. They used their TSX Pro head which has a very high velocity intake port and high velocity exhaust port. 4Piston figured a way to increase to 340 cfm and keep air velocity prime and use it to their advantage. The TSX Pro head they came up with had huge mid-range TQ for that displacement via bore & stroke. They did have 2 pulleys on the engine - one to reduce vibration and the other to operate the oiling system.

Parts that maintain air velocity will be huge. Creating air velocity, RR3 cams, and being able to produce as much mid-range TQ on a 2.0L then extending that TQ level into the upper rpm's by mxing velocity and cfm in a linear fashion. A perfect header spec and blueprinted header helped in carrying the TQ as far right as possible. The ITB's they used and the build as about velocity mixed with decent cfm..
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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yes 4Piston got a 86mm x 86mm 2.0L past 300HP. They used their TSX Pro head which has a very high velocity intake port and high velocity exhaust port. 4Piston figured a way to increase to 340 cfm and keep air velocity prime and use it to their advantage. The TSX Pro head they came up with had huge mid-range TQ for that displacement via bore & stroke. They did have 2 pulleys on the engine - one to reduce vibration and the other to operate the oiling system.

Parts that maintain air velocity will be huge. Creating air velocity, RR3 cams, and being able to produce as much mid-range TQ on a 2.0L then extending that TQ level into the upper rpm's by mxing velocity and cfm in a linear fashion. A perfect header spec and blueprinted header helped in carrying the TQ as far right as possible. The ITB's they used and the build as about velocity mixed with decent cfm..
Exceeding the 150 hp/Liter mark is duty for serious race engine builders, especially if one uses the Honda K-series. It started in the late 70'ies when the first guys achieved that mark on carburettors with much poorer flowing heads like the K-series ports do it. In the 80'ies, when the EFI more and more took the amount of the race cake more race teams reached the 300 hp mark in the 2 liter classes. Later on the class rules get more restrictive on the intake side and even with restricted intakes they still reached 280 Nm and depending on intake Venturi size peak power at a certain engine speed. If 8500 rpm were reached without getting chocked the 300 hp were granted. In the 90'ies Opel engineers made 310 hp and 280 Nm out of a restricted 2000 ccm C20XE. For your interest, 280 Nm are 206 lbft (all rated on flywheel). This is old coffee from the day before yesterday.

A member from K20a.org bought a 4Piston 86x86 engine, they still struggle to reach the 300 hp mark. This is not the knowhow of 4Piston, this is the knowhow of the header designer, which makes it finally reaching the 300 hp mark. A race engine company, selling an engine without header and IM can't guarantee nothing, just the capability, but not the peak power value. This would be bad business, and I am sure 4Piston won't do this.

A good developed 2 Liter race engine reaches the 300 hp latest shortly beyond 8000 rpm. For this the VE must be very high. The head can be almost stock, but the intake and exhaust as well as the valve timing must be on spot to get the alternation of load to that level. The C20XE intake port flows stock at intake at 200 [email protected],55", that's the basis for the 300 hp head. Honda K20a starts at 290 to 300 [email protected]". So what head development is necessary to make a 300 hp 2 Liter engine when you have a K-series? Almost nothing, you have already the basis. Some increase the valve to decrease the valve-throat-ratio, some increase the valve size and keep the stock valve-throat-ratio. Both reach the 300 hp mark. The knowhow seats in the alternation of load parts: intake, cams, header, exhaust and fuel mixture system as well as the combustion process, where the K-series really sucks through the 51° included valve angle. The C20XE has a fuck...ing fast combustion chamber. Much better then the K-series. If the head flow is on spot with the other parts, the 300 hp are reached around 8500 rpm.
 
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