[Hydesg]

Great, this will change the game a bit . Is it already on the way?

We would have been poor in our heart without related passion, dreams are like our power supply. For yours I think to get it more clear you have to define budget, aims and timeframe to work out the sculpture below.

It is not allowed in Singapore anymore?

It was never ever allowed :coleman:

 

[LotusElise]

It was never ever allowed

Approaches like "revising" the block identification aren't on your horizont? Is it to dangerous.

 

[Hydesg]

Approaches like "revising" the block identification aren't on your horizont? Is it to dangerous.

They lnow how to measure deck height, and look at dip stick... so. Dun think it’s possible now. :fuuu:
:frage:

 

[LotusElise]

They lnow how to measure deck height, and look at dip stick... so. Dun think it’s possible now....

Mmmmhhhh...19 mm can be measured by an dip stick. But is it precise enough if you have an lower oil pan? Do they really measure the block height? Otherwise if only 212.1 mm blocks allowed you can do a nice K20 turbo build.

BTW do you have in Singapore an assessment for the engine, like we have here in Europe for emissions, noise, and so on?

 

[Hydesg]

Mmmmhhhh...19 mm can be measured by an dip stick. But is it precise enough if you have an lower oil pan? Do they really measure the block height? Otherwise if only 212.1 mm blocks allowed you can do a nice K20 turbo build.

BTW do you have in Singapore an assessment for the engine, like we have here in Europe for emissions, noise, and so on?

Yep. Just compare dip stick with shorter ones.
Turbo also not safe.... yes full suite of assessment very stringent

Btw r u familar with toda a3 cams ? Would they be suitable for stock k20 type r engine? Especially for daily street drive?

 

[LotusElise]

Yep. Just compare dip stick with shorter ones.

Turbo also not safe.... yes full suite of assessment very stringent



Btw r u familar with toda a3 cams ? Would they be suitable for stock k20 type r engine? Especially for daily street drive?

Wow...sounds like even tougher than here.

TODA A3 is a very good choice for built 86x86 and does a great job in stock ones. You will sacrifice a bit down low in high speed cam because of the VTC limitation with 11:1 CR. A TODA A2 would do better there.




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[Hydesg]

Wow...sounds like even tougher than here.

TODA A3 is a very good choice for built 86x86 and does a great job in stock ones. You will sacrifice a bit down low in high speed cam because of the VTC limitation with 11:1 CR. A TODA A2 would do better there.




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Thanks. Built meaning high comp piston etc? Head port n polish?

 

[LotusElise]

Thanks. Built meaning high comp piston etc? Head port n polish?

Good question...I had a 12:1 CR in mind only to adapt the different dynamic CR of the TODA A3 cam lobes. A better port flow isn't necessary for the A3 cams as they peak below 9000 rpm, depending on the IM you gonna use. If port flow is improved the win will be small in power as long as not all other components help to support a common VE aim.

 

[Hydesg]

Good question...I had a 12:1 CR in mind only to adapt the different dynamic CR of the TODA A3 cam lobes. A better port flow isn't necessary for the A3 cams as they peak below 9000 rpm, depending on the IM you gonna use. If port flow is improved the win will be small in power as long as not all other components help to support a common VE aim.

thanks!
I am still wondering what I should do if I do a rebuild.

would the bc stroker kit (BC0044) yeld a 2.35l engine on a k20 block?
how much do you need to bore the cylinders? seems to be 90mm based on the calculator online (http://performancetrends.com/Calculators/Engine-Displacement/Engine-Displacement.php)

at 90mm do i need to get the block sleeved?

I am currently at 265 crank with full toda system, and hybrid racing CAI
hopping to get 315 crank with such a setup

K20 block/head 2.35L - Includes 4340 billet crank, 92mm stroke w/B18A rod journals, H-beam LW rods (5.512 c-to-c), and custom pistons (choice of bore/compression).

 

[Lotus]

Without sleeving you commonly don’t overbore more than 1mm, so 87mm.
Anything larger that should last, you need to sleeve.

A 87mmx92mm BC kit on Clockwise performance ITBs with 1mm oversized intake valves got to 300HP in the UK in a Elise. Dan Webster build and mapped that engine.
315HP at the crank will be challenge without increasing the bore beyond 87mm.

There was a chap here on k20a.org from France that fit a K24 crank in a K20 case. It needs some shaving on the inside of the block, but is doable.
Piston to wall clearance was too low, so it didn’t last. But boy, did it have torque.
He also posted some youtube videos.
Rod to stroke ratio is very low. Good for torque, not so good for longevity due to high side loads and rather high piston accleration figures if you want to rev that engine.

 

[LotusElise]

A 87mmx92mm BC kit on Clockwise performance ITBs with 1mm oversized intake valves got to 300HP in the UK in a Elise...315HP at the crank will be challenge without increasing the bore beyond 87mm.

Yuup I agree with you, the 86x92 engine is challenging to push it to 300 [email protected] rpm, further increase of engine speed to 8800 rpm would be necessary. For 315 [email protected] rpm (27 m/s mean piston speed) one need indeed a very good setup, as this is a VE level of 1.14, which the aftermarket support don't let you achieve easily. This need specific development. Even with an 87x92 engine you would have challenges to reach the 315 [email protected] rpm as the VE level is still beyond 1.11...peaky cams sure will do it, but who want to have a peaky engine for an DD application?

If budget isn't your limitation in first order a 89x90.7 would be an easier approach, as you would reduce piston mean speed at 8800 rpm and the displacement would help to reach the 315 hp more easily. It is the much better engine concept than a 87x92 engine, just the small block is around 1500-2000 $ more for the sleeving. The F22C crank is more reliable then the BC billet stuff, as it is forged in OEM toolings with OEM quality checks. In addition the billet cranks has systematically not that strongness of forged ones (knocking shocks).

 

[awhk]

If budget isn't your limitation in first order a 89x90.7 would be an easier approach, as you would reduce piston mean speed at 8800 rpm and the displacement would help to reach the 315 hp more easily. It is the much better engine concept than a 87x92 engine, just the small block is around 1500-2000 $ more for the sleeving. The F22C crank is more reliable then the BC billet stuff, as it is forged in OEM toolings with OEM quality checks. In addition the billet cranks has systematically not that strongness of forged ones (knocking shocks).

yup Hydesg, i support LotusElise opinion on this


i wanted to do a f22c crank with 27mm pistons, keeping the stock rod length.
of course the BC kit is a ready-made option and no need to purchase everything else separately. the fact that it can rev high is also assuring.

maybe you can explore that option. 265hp on crank, about 240whp is pretty decent already!


honestly if i wasnt planning on family this 2019 i would have thrown the budget concern away and ordered up everything.

pistons can check out clockwisemotion, they have the 27mm pistons done by omega. looks dope

 

[awhk]

Hi everybody!

It’s been about a year since my engine got built, about 8 months after dyno tuning.

My engine made 240whp on a single roller dyno (the one the giant roller hidden in the ground)

Toda A3 cams
RBC head
Mahle 87mm 12:5:1
Type r 86mm crank
No oil squirters tho.

Now a year along the road, I’ve gotten the itch again.

Besides some ideas about gearing,
I’ve a ported head (around 350cfm) coming in and wonder if I should stick with the A3 cams or upgrade.

Considering skunk2 tuner 2, 4piston RR3, blox C, dc elite endurance.

All around 260 duration and around 13.5mm of lift.
Being a daily, I’m also concerned about valvetrain/tct wear. Toda is convenient in that they use single springs and the metallurgy is great.

This is just me wondering if I’ve left horses on the table and whether the purchase/installation/tune of another set of cams is worth it.

Again, I seek the experience of people who’ve helped me so much
Lotus , LotusElise, BlackNDecker, K20actr.J
And anyone who has experience on a stout k20 build.


Thanks guys Markus , Marko

 

[LotusElise]

Thanks for the reply. I would love to see the dyno sheet and the full engine setup incl. I, IM, H and E. Interesting is, assuming it peaked at 8500 rpm, the VE would be around 1,[email protected] rpm, which would be good for an RRC.

I’ve a ported head (around 350cfm) coming in and wonder if I should stick with the A3 cams or upgrade...Considering skunk2 tuner 2, 4piston RR3, blox C, dc elite endurance...

What intake valve size does that intake port have? Do you happen to know what valve-throat-ratio it has? At which valve lift does the 350 cfm flow happen? What does it flow at 0.1" and 0.2"? If you don't exceed the 9000 rpm I see no cause to change the cams. The head maybe, if low lift flow isn't much affected.

In General, I wouldn't consider a S2 T2 because of quality reasons. Blox? I didn't know they lable or design cams. The 4P RR3 and the DC EE are race cams, which I wouldn't use for an DD, especially if you may have to pass any emission limits regularly.

The actual result is good, but behind the optimum, it's around 14 bar of BMEP. The head and cams aren't the limiting factor here. IM and H are the main players to rise BMEP between 13-15 bar in a peak perspective. If you open the intake port for better flow and add a race cam like the DC EE, than you will have more peak power, but limit at the same time with IM and H, means a loss in the midrange and a limited right end of the engine speed bandwidth.

 

[awhk]

LotusElise


You’re absolutely right, about that header limiting factor

I didn’t get the chance to measure the actual port openings on the head. A local machinist hand ported the rrc im to fit the machined head opening

The car made 250whp on the same dyno, so a 10whp jump

The intake side everything has been port matched
J37 -> rrc
rrc -> head

I did not
purchase oversize valves. I had been afraid of insufficient valve to piston clearance. It would seem that has left Hp on the table for me.

In terms of exhaust, I’m limited by the legal options to a purely stock fd2 type r exhaust, in all of its 2 and quarter inch magnificence.

Sorry I can’t give you the data. I’ll need to find the photo I took of the dyno readout. Post it up soon

 

[LotusElise]

The car made 250whp on the same dyno...

Wow, this, I assume, happened at a higher engine speed, like almost 9000 rpm, as VE get really high for the RRC IM. Depending on the chassis (FWD or RWD?) this means at least 284 hp at the flywheel out of a 2045 ccm engine on a RRC and a stock exhaust pipe ID. This is really nice!

I did not...purchase oversize valves....

Do you have a flow chart of the intake and exhaust port to share?

I’ll need to find the photo I took of the dyno readout. Post it up soon

Great, I am looking forward to see it.

 

[awhk]

LotusElise you're right on the higher engine speed.
FWD on civic fd chassis

No flow charts. The intake port looks like CNC machined but the exhaust ports are smooth.

this is the initial build i did in 2018, dyno in march this year.

no torque graph cuz the tuner wanted to show me the hp, for some reason i forgot to ask for it.
the rev cut is 8800
the peaks at the end are my wobbly driveshafts causing the car to shake at the 5th gear pull

later on the ported head installed.
The rrc was port matched with throttle as well as the runners to head opening.
i had issues with fuel delivery during the road tune. car was boggy and wouldt go lower than 14.1

i changed fuel strainer, the fuel pressure regulator in the fuel strainer, fuel pump (walbro) and injectors (rdx)

whatever the problem was, it was one of the above.

this is the dyno

again, revving to 8800.
power peaks at 8.5k
honestly the car feels great just before vtec and just after, like 4k to 6k+

the top end feels... meh.

in for your opinion LotusElise

thanks

 

[LotusElise]

LotusElise you're right on the higher engine speed.
FWD on civic fd chassis

No flow charts. The intake port looks like CNC machined but the exhaust ports are smooth.

this is the initial build i did in 2018, dyno in march this year.

no torque graph cuz the tuner wanted to show me the hp, for some reason i forgot to ask for it.
the rev cut is 8800
the peaks at the end are my wobbly driveshafts causing the car to shake at the 5th gear pull

View attachment 101220


later on the ported head installed.
The rrc was port matched with throttle as well as the runners to head opening.
i had issues with fuel delivery during the road tune. car was boggy and wouldt go lower than 14.1

i changed fuel strainer, the fuel pressure regulator in the fuel strainer, fuel pump (walbro) and injectors (rdx)

whatever the problem was, it was one of the above.

this is the dyno

View attachment 101222


again, revving to 8800.
power peaks at 8.5k
honestly the car feels great just before vtec and just after, like 4k to 6k+

the top end feels... meh.

in for your opinion LotusElise

thanks

Please send me the calibration and log file of the WOT run.

 

[Hydesg]

yup Hydesg, i support LotusElise opinion on this


i wanted to do a f22c crank with 27mm pistons, keeping the stock rod length.
of course the BC kit is a ready-made option and no need to purchase everything else separately. the fact that it can rev high is also assuring.

maybe you can explore that option. 265hp on crank, about 240whp is pretty decent already!


honestly if i wasnt planning on family this 2019 i would have thrown the budget concern away and ordered up everything.

pistons can check out clockwisemotion, they have the 27mm pistons done by omega. looks dope

Hey, just built mine too and doing first dyno this week.
which dyno u went to? LTM?

am using sk2 stage 2 cams but unsure of reliability

 

[awhk]

Yo Hydesg

My Dyno in jb

Skunk2 stage 2

I assume they are skunk2 tuner 2?
That’s a good cam, will make power.

New chain? what tensioner?