[katman]

For those of you that road race and have K20 EG's, have you noticed severe plowing problems when going through turns? I did. I noticed I have way more understeer than compared to when my B-series engine was in.

I attended the recent Redline Event open track day this past mother's day at Buttonwillow. First time I've been to the track since the K install. I spent most of my time trying to get my suspension to feel right. Currently running ITR fr/rr sway bars and TEIN RS sus. It didn't dawn on me to try and unhook the front ITR swaybar to see how that would handle. The rear end wouldn't rotate like I wanted it to almost not matter what configuration I setup the front or rear. I had excessive plowage when hitting turns, not to mention traction problems..haha from the K torque ouput which was rather neato.

Just wondering if anyone else has experienced this and for any suggestions...

 

[Rubber Chicken]

What's your suspension setup?

I had a B-Series type R in my EG race car before I did the swap. There was hardly any difference in balance between the engine swaps (K was 25 lbs lighter), but there was a big difference in torque out of the corners. With the K you have to stay off the throttle in the corners much longer. Going a gear up works. Using a wider tire helps too (225 or wider).

At a wild guess I'd say to check the front wheel travel and see if you're bottoming out. If you hit the bump stop the car will understeer like a pig. Take out the spring, then reassemble the shock. Jack the wheel & tire up until the shock bottoms out on the bump stop, then make a mark on the body/wheel/tire. You usually need to remove the sway bar end link to make things easier. Keep pushing the wheel up until the shock/wheel bottoms out and make another mark. Put the spring back in, and put the car on the ground.

You should have at least 2 inches travel on the front before you hit the bump stop (assuming at least 450 lb springs on the front), and another inch or more before the strut bottoms out completely.

You can also do this on the rear to check suspension travel. You need more travel on the rear than the front - at least three inches before the bumpstop.

 

[brian g]

In case Rubber Chicken wasn't clear on this point, are you describing on-throttle understeer, or off-throttle understeer such as when you turn in? You should have (at least) equivalent or better handling off-throttle at turn in with your K. If not, you have a setup problem. If the problem is on-throttle, it's driver induced and you need to modulate your throttle input.

brian g

 

[chad]

In case Rubber Chicken wasn't clear on this point, are you describing on-throttle understeer, or off-throttle understeer such as when you turn in? You should have (at least) equivalent or better handling off-throttle at turn in with your K. If not, you have a setup problem. If the problem is on-throttle, it's driver induced and you need to modulate your throttle input.

brian g

katman, i noticed the same thing you did my first session out last weekend (em1 k20r swap)

the k is completely different "FEEL" than any b cept for my built b20 i had.

modulation of the throttle is a definate must...you are not experiencing oversteer due to the car's handling. it is because you are on the gas way too hard! a little lift at the point of push and it should rotate like normal (like having a b or a d)

like brian said it is mostly a throttle induced understeer you have....
like derek said you probably need a wider tire (noticed you were on the new azenia's in other post) THIS WILL DEFINATELY cause an understeer problem.

put some R compound tires on there (i run 225 hoosier) and this will help the problem.

i don't know if you watch my videos or not but if you did those were from the second day on track with the new powerplant.

watching saturday vs sundays race is complete NIGHT and DAY difference in the car. I was FAST on sunday and was still getting use to the car on saturdays' race. you can watch sunday as i put cars lentghs on every one but on saturday i could barely keep up with them coming out of the corners....after watching it was because i was modulating better on sunday than saturday. saturday i was still mashing the gas at apex and understeering like a pig ....sunday it was a roll on throttle type of deal.

still need some more seat time with the new power. daily driving it i would think would help me but since it is my track whore that isn't possible.

hope that helps....

hasport and hondata rock by the way....kpro kicks ass!!! mounts from hasport....can't go wrong with them!

 

[katman]

thanks for the tips fellas!

Chad....
link me to your videos, ya? I haven't seen em!!!

Brian...
you know, come to think of it, I was on the throttle (which I thought was light modulation) but I guess not. I'll have to be even lighter on the throttle next time. I did notice that when I got off the throttle almost completely, the car would handle like normal. Btw Brian, are the rumors true about you guys releasing an updated EG K20 bolt-in kit that raises the motor up more??

Rubber chicky....
I'm running ITR fr 24mm/rr 22mm swaybars, Tein RS sus, upper fr/rr tower bars, the updated Falken Azenis RT615 tires (205 series), wheels are 15x7 fr / 15x6.5 rr both have an offset of 40. I don't think I was bottoming out at all. I believe it was more of a driver issue...
too throttle happy :driving:


Thanks again for the tips ya'll!

 

[brian g]

Btw Brian, are the rumors true about you guys releasing an updated EG K20 bolt-in kit that raises the motor up more??

d

No concrete plans. If we do we would make dual holes like we did on the EKK2 to kit. The DC has even more head room for a raised egine than the EG.

brian g

 

[V8KO]

thanks for the tips fellas!

I believe it was more of a driver issue...
too throttle happy :driving:

A buddy has a k swapped eg at an autox last year, he didnt have much exit speed as compared to the old motor (b18c-r) coming out of a corner...just couldnt tell the wheels were spinning. That extra torque makes things a little weird.

However once you figure out the little things the k just tears up an autox track.

Sucks that we dont have any tracks around here.

 

[K2e2vin]

well with this "torque issue" would it be better to run the Type-S or base Final drive instead of the Type-R one for road race/autocross?

 

[V8KO]

well with this "torque issue" would it be better to run the Type-S or base Final drive instead of the Type-R one for road race/autocross?

I dont know if this question was directed at me...but when I say the "extra torque makes things a little weird" its a good weird lol.

When I drove the car on the same track I really didnt have any issues with traction lose after the first lap to speak of, so I guess it comes down to seat time. Typically for myself (believe me I aint braggin lol) I drive alot of different cars generally throughout the season (borrowed vehicles from other drivers, (fwd or rwd) and generally place where I always do 1st or 2nd.

The none bragging part comes when I hit the bigger events (200+ cars) and then Im just another (top 10-ish) driver.

BACK to the subject, basically the torque is just more than what us Honda guys are used to. In reality its really not a whole lot of torque compared to driving a big v-8.

 

[K2e2vin]

Well the question was directed at anyone who has experienced this understeer issue. I run my car on mainly bad roads, so wouldnt the torque cause a lot more noticeable understeer during the turns?
Im used to driving the D15B and B16A, which has way less torque than the K20A and the gearing doesnt increase the torque as much as the K20A transmission. I like cars that are easy to drive. Wouldnt the K20A's higher torque output make it "harder" to drive?


sorry for threadjacking Katman.

 

[brian g]

Well the question was directed at anyone who has experienced this understeer issue. I run my car on mainly bad roads, so wouldnt the torque cause a lot more noticeable understeer during the turns?
Im used to driving the D15B and B16A, which has way less torque than the K20A and the gearing doesnt increase the torque as much as the K20A transmission. I like cars that are easy to drive. Wouldnt the K20A's higher torque output make it "harder" to drive?

It's not actually a question of harder to drive, it's a question of getting used to how much throttle to use. The amount of torque is determined by how hard you press your foot down.


brian g

 

[katman]

It's not actually a question of harder to drive, it's a question of getting used to how much throttle to use. The amount of torque is determined by how hard you press your foot down.


brian g

exactly :up:

 

[V8KO]

It's not actually a question of harder to drive, it's a question of getting used to how much throttle to use. The amount of torque is determined by how hard you press your foot down.


brian g

lol. Well said Mr. B.

 

[K2e2vin]

So that means you will be spending more time at part throttle correct? im asking if a bigger(numerically smaller) Final drive would reduce the torque enough so that you can apply more gas without having to worry about slip.

 

[jon v]

So that means you will be spending more time at part throttle correct? im asking if a bigger(numerically smaller) Final drive would reduce the torque enough so that you can apply more gas without having to worry about slip.

I would think that the ansewer to that would be yes. But at the same time you may not be getting out of 4th gear on a smaller track with a lower final drive. By doing that you would limit yourself where as if you left the final drive alone you may be able to just adjust your driving style and accomplish teh same thing without changing any aspects of the car. If you did put in a lower final drive, you would have a higher top speed if needed for bigger tracks.

Personally I wouldn't run an ITR final or anything (numerically) bigger, but I am going to be running a big torquie K24a2, with a 7 something redline...

 

[chad]

well with this "torque issue" would it be better to run the Type-S or base Final drive instead of the Type-R one for road race/autocross?

HELL NO.....well not for road race anyways....
i put a 5.01 into my k20 powered ek....

you want to put the power to the ground as fast as possible!!! and gearing is how you do that!!

auto x...possible a lower final drive would help....

but once you figure out how to modulate the throttle coming out of a corner is INSANE in a K powered car!

 

[playasyougo]

www.whiteline.com.au

EG Suspension Parts (Remember its in AUS $$$`s)

The best suspension kit makers in the world in my opinion.

Using components from their kit like the adj rear antiroll bar etc should help dial out any understeer.

 

[jon v]

How is this for an adjustable sway bar...

A-spec racing... :up:

 

[playasyougo]

How is this for an adjustable sway bar...

A-spec racing... :up:

Can`t comment. All i see is a bar saying A-Spec Racing on it. Maybe take some more pics of the adjustment points etc ?

 

[K2e2vin]

Can`t comment. All i see is a bar saying A-Spec Racing on it. Maybe take some more pics of the adjustment points etc ?

You can search around on H-T(Honda-Tech.com), or go to their webpage for more info(i dont think the site really gets updated though): http://www.a-spec-racing.com