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In search for better Header

2355 Views 101 Replies 7 Participants Last post by  LotusElise
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It is better to open new thred than me spamming in @mrluke topic like a pleb lol (s. here: 1997 Lotus Elise S1 and the quest for 300bhp NA | Page 2 | Honda / Acura K20a K24a Engine Forum).

@LotusElise
Header has 45mm primes/ 51mm secondary /63mm colector (2mm wall thickness)
Primes are 220-230mm long
Secondary are 460mm long
LotusElise said:
Ooch, that's a difficult header design, not really supporting racy engine speeds as well for the tuning, it does not really play the jocker card of an 4-2-1 system. The high speed cam knock suppression is a bit low. It has supporting resonances in the low speed cam and at the max torque area of the IM, but nothing helpfully in the above 6500 rpm area. The next supporting resonance is at 9800 rpm, which is out of scoop for most K-series engine setups. Do you know the knock margin on the high speed cam and what the VTC values were?

I am quite confident, with a improved header design that torque curve will come above the 4-1 header system.
Thanks for looking at it, I was stating OD and piping is 2mm wall so ID is -4mm of those values.
I don't know anything about Vtc knock values. I'm not on that level

Also this would explain ,a bit better, why knock happened.
This header design + 25.5 igt all across the rev range + RBB intake manifold + 14afr at 5300-6300 rpm.

What do you think of my idea of making 4-1 with reverse cone and 540mm long primes?
If I was to judge it by Holdeners data, worst thing that could happen is to loose 5-8 hp/nm in 4000-5000 rpm range, I would trade that for more hp up from there.

Specs of Holdener 4-1 header (Blue)
Primes 50.8mm step to 54mm (OD) and 510mm long.

Specs of Holdener 4-2-1 header (Red)
45mm tubing with Primes 530mm long and Second 380mm long

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That's a good idea @Kowalski999 to separate that header topic. I also want to point on a well discussed header topic here: Ask Joe McCarthy Exhaust Manifold, Header related questions thread. | Honda / Acura K20a K24a Engine Forum. You find there almost the complete competence of the 2013/2014 K20a.org members regarding header design and testing.

Thanks for looking at it, I was stating OD and piping is 2mm wall so ID is -4mm of those values.
I don't know anything about Vtc knock values. I'm not on that level
That would mean the ID's are 41 and 47 mm, which is a bit tight, but ok for a 86x86 engine.
Understood, you didn't see the VTC and IGT maps. Was not your engine?

Also this would explain ,a bit better, why knock happened.
This header design + 25.5 igt all across the rev range + RBB intake manifold + 14afr at 5300-6300 rpm.
Ok, you mean IGT at WOT was below 26° BTDC over the high speed cam? And lambda was at WOT at 0.96 through the mentioned engine speed range?

What do you think of my idea of making 4-1 with reverse cone and 540mm long primes?
If I was to judge it by Holdeners data, worst thing that could happen is to loose 5-8 hp/nm in 4000-5000 rpm range, I would trade that for more hp up from there.
The reverse cone technology has it's justification, it comes with two sides of a coin. Thence well designed it helps on the pro-side more as it struggles on the con-side. More information down the road in the following thread: Megaphones and Reverse Cones Theory and Results | Honda / Acura K20a K24a Engine Forum.
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@LotusElise
1. Yes I have seen that discussion, went over it 3 times and also here Malcolm summed it all up This is what I got about headers.
Guess at this point all I can do it to make it and test it.

2. It is my engine but I don't have insight on VTC table and only can see IGT from the logging on my phone.

3. Yes IGT at WOT with previous reflash from "Serge bo" that was reading 25.5 from 2000-7800rpm.
Lambda was indicating .95-.96 at 5000-6000ish rev range. One guy with similar mods and same reflash did Wide band o2 reading so he got more precise lambda reading.
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He had PLM 4-2-1 header that has much longer primes than what I have and as I remember my lambda reading on low cam was .84 - .85 before switching to big cam.

4. Thx will look into it.
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I'd organise full access to the ECU as otherwise you cannot take full benefit from header or exhaust system work.
I'll get dyno tuned it again at the end of the year as I made friend with people at revo and their dyno is spot on. Not like b.s. that I was using this time.

Also will be doing some modifications to the intake manifold. Plan is to instal v.stack. in plenum as I dont like how current situation lookls like.
+ R oil pump to rev it till 8000-8100rpm.
When the exhaust valve opens, the pulse of air travels to the collector and then reflects back to the valve. When it arrives back at the valve this would be high pressure? So should you size your runner lengths so that the pulse is at the collector when the valve opens?

Or should it be just after the waves has reflected away from the valve?
There was one more post from Joe that stated (if I remember correctly) that his header worked good regardless of engine setup. But cant find it now. Only found this one.
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There is also some talk on header design by David Vizard for v8 engines but that doesn't apply to k series on all aspects. Still interesting to listen and shows some dyno data for comparison.

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Ultra mega custom intake lol
Before runner length at divider 145mm
Now 195mm + 95mm runner in the head = 290mm total runner length
Calculator says "3rd harmonic, RPM range is from 7729 to 8834 with a pulse strength of 7 percent"
But ill have to stop there as I cant extend it any more.
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Just need to remodel plenum, move TB flange 25mm further and test it.
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There was one more post from Joe that stated (if I remember correctly) that his header worked good regardless of engine setup. But cant find it now. Only found this one.
Length are function engine speed and exhaust temperature, diameter has more involved parameters as David Vizard mentioned, his simplification of port exhaust flow could be a base approach. I wouldn't sign what Joe have stated, but for similar head design and various displacements there is a good possibility that a little more or less displacement don't much deviate from their own optimums if all engine speed ranges are similar.

There is also some talk on header design by David Vizard for v8 engines but that doesn't apply to k series on all aspects. Still interesting to listen and shows some dyno data for comparison.
Yeap, the differences, which are really crucial in header design, is the firing order and distance in crank degree. A V10 design is much different to a I5 as well as a V8 design differs much to an I4 design, just because of the fact that firing order and distances between those are totally different. Simple fact, which lead to totally different optimal header design, despite the fact each bank has the same amount of cylinder like their inline brothers (V10 - I5, V8 - I4). Just look at the cross plane I4 of Yamaha, which had a 1-3-2-4 firing order, while the flat plane has either 1-3-4-2 or very rarely at e.g. UK produced engines 1-2-4-3 as well 1-4-3-2 and 1-3-2-4 would be possible, even when not rational. But when it comes to consideration of alternation of load, mass balancing, performance, emissions and so on the 1-3-4-2 makes most sense. Yamaha found in the cross plane a very good responsiveness for the GP bikes. Why answers the following video:


They are not saying that the uneven firing distance causes issue in designing the optimal header length, low speed torque is quite affected, 4-2-1 headers are challenging and totally application depended. That creates some challenges and disadvantages, but for the Yamaha R1 (it's head I measured on the flow bench, see my built thread) the GP races where a very good basis to vanish those and emphasize the advantages of it.

Now 195mm + 95mm runner in the head = 290mm total runner length
Calculator says "3rd harmonic, RPM range is from 7729 to 8834 with a pulse strength of 7 percent"
Depends on IAT and also on the diameter in some way, but finally 3rd order would be around 7200 to 8300 rpm. BTW, the port length I would see a bit shorter according the molds I've took from the RBB, RSP, PPA and PCX head.
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I got motivated to add runner length because of Richards test. He tested 20 manifolds on v8 engine.


And video of test as he overlays them so it is easier to judge resoults.


It is interesting to see how short runner manifold makes same power as longer runner manifold even tho it is loosing 30ish hp in mid range. Naturally I was thinking how nice it would be to have +10-15hp from 3500 to 6500rpm.

My goal is 265chp, and after that I'll give it a go around Grobnik race track.

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Manifold is finished, big ugly plenum, and testing is done.
Best 80-150kmh with old intake 7.1sec.
Now 6.7sec and my personal best.
In total Im running 7 velocety stack induction + intake lol. Now vtec cross is completely silent and power feels sooo smooth.
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I have finali found some builds that my tuner has tuned. Cl9 cars with k24a3 engines

First my setup when I had header+no cat+cai vs other guy same that +j35tb, 227vs 230hp. He was dynoed at DynoDaze UK. Results are matching so walid to use as reference for other.
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Second build:
Mine vs his
Cu2 intake cam vs Fn2 intake cam
My 86mm ari box vs his custom 76mm air box (I think it is garbage as it is 150cm long hose connected to the cutout next to the head lamp and no V.stacks on it)
Same headers
70mm vs 63mm exhaust
Same S2PS copy intake my was ported vs his stock
RDX 410 vs stock injectors
j35 vs Stock 60mm Throttle body
Stock oil pump vs K20 no shaft oil pump
50vtc gear vs 50vtc gear
7800 rpm limit vs 8000 rpm limit
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One interesting dyno vs dyno comparison and example why I like Bapro machine so much.
Stock cl9 power run + reflash power run on Dyno Dynamics vs same deal on Bapro. D.D. overrates numbers by 18hp.


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Bapro machine
What is that?

Stock cl9 power run + reflash power
What engine does a CL9 run?

What do I see in the dyno sheets regarding engine setups, tunes and where is the location of the second?
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Bapro is company that make dynos. Next to MAHA it is my favorite machine as this two brands don't use "standard" whp x 1.15 for calculating chp output (for fwd).
Bapro | Chassis Dynamometers and Dyno Machines

Cl9 has k24a3 engine. Stock is rated at 190hp.
internally same as 03-05 k24a2 , only makes 10hp less because of restrictive tune.

From my observations Bapro is superior machine to this dyno dynamics for calculating engine hp. Readout is more precise/responsive, main thing to look at is part at vtec point at 6000rpm.
And on top of that final hp numbers on this dyno dynamics are good as random. Could as well say 490hp as there is no way that stock CL9 makes 216hp under any circumstances.
There are no setups here, just stock cars + stock with a reflash.

I have 4 printouts from stock cl9 cars on this Bapro dyno, 3rd picture that 250 000km cl9 had some funny stuff going with DIY short ram induction so maybe problem that caused that bad low and mid power curve. And to note this cars not even tested the same year but readouts are this precise. (DIN70020 is used for correction)
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One more example is Bapro vs DynoJet with this stock e92 330D. Stock is rated 228hp
First goes to the DynoJet and they run it as inertia and car puts down 240hp 4th gear and 245hp in 5th gear. Than goes to the Bapro machine and puts 225hp.
This place that is using DynoJet charges 15 buck for 2 pulls so they run it as inertia and people like to see bigger numbers than factory ratings so it works for them.
I know more examples where people went first on this DynoJet than on Bapro and made 10-15hp less. When they run this dynojet as load dyno than it is not that bad, it is gets within 5hp of what Bapro is showing and this two shops are 1000 meters apart so there is no elevation or other things that could influence result.
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When I see stock cl9 (k24a3) making over 195chp on any dyno machine I disregarded that dyno as a valid tool for measuring power.

And WHP x 1.15 = CHP machines are also useless to me. For example if I have 160whp on first test and put 5kg lighter fly wheel and 8kg lighter wheels than run it again and on that run I get 170whp than calculation will show that Engine power went from 184chp to 195chp. When in reality that didn't happen. Engine power is still the same just parasitic losses are decreased. MAHA and Bapro will do that calculation where some of other machines will not and will give false engine HP number.
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Bapro is company that make dynos. Next to MAHA it is my favorite machine as this two brands don't use "standard" whp x 1.15 for calculating chp output (for fwd).
Thanks for the link and hint 🆙, I didn't know that company till I read your response. The specific Bapro dyno, you refer always, is it a load controlling or inertia dyno?

In general we see these two technologies, the load controlling brakes can be divided in different technologies: fluid types (water, oil, ...), eddy current and much simpler load suppliers. All those technologies have their purpose and application. But what all divide is the torque sensing system. Inertia dynos are the only one which are not having a force sensing system, they have a measured inertia and from the dyno roller speed change the torque can be calculated. All other systems are load controlled, that means for the moment of time or longer ;), there is a force measured, either by a leverarm and a load cell which gives indirectly a torque = leverarm x force. For those load sensing technologies it doesn't matter if it is a eddy current type or a water type engine brake as it just put a resisting torque against the engine torque. At the balance point = no change in engine speed, engine torque (if mounted directly, else drivetrain loss has taken into account) and brake torque are equal, and only in that case the measurement can used like in the equation. If one run a non-constant speed program on the engine dyno the inertia of the dyno and engine increase the uncertainty massively as they are mostly not known, at least for the engine. Thence those engine or drivetrain brakes uses their own inertia, which only can changed in engine speed if an additional torque is supplied, which has to be added or subtracted (acceleration or deceleration) to the measured torque.

The engine inertia is for all measuring techniques, when measuring dynamically (increasing engine speed) neglected therefore dynamic measurements should always as slow as possible, which means at highest possible gear. And now I come to my point. Thence, and with what I've wrote above, all dynamic measurements for flywheel based calculations measure the a part of the inertia and the total of the friction by the run out measurement (gear in, clutch open, NO NEUTRAL!). From that we can calculate the engine speed related friction torque and a part of the inertia of the drivetrain.

My recommendation is measuring torque always stationary, which is the most accurate on the engine dyno and wheel horse power calculations. Anything else has always a neglected part of the inertia, which causes uncertainty. The guys who measure in 2nd or 3rd gear on the dyno to increase their flywheel based power figures know why they do it, but mostly you see it at VTEC, the torque jump is unreal high and short, just an oscillation of the roll, inducing a higher roll speed change, causing a overshooting torque at VTEC. OE's do power figures always stationary on the engine dyno, tune maybe on the chassis and street (idle can't be tuned on the engine dyno properly) to adapt the real system finally. That has a cause.

I was responsible for the uncertainties at the dyno, among other tasks, at the oldest engine company on earth. I introduced a process according DIN 1319 - the mother of all norms regarding uncertainty of measurements - for control of uncertainties in measurement, introduced torque sensing flange techniques as the water brakes and generator are too huge in their uncertainties, dynamically and stationary. The approach I developed, was rolled out for the hole company, which has over 30 test benches (1.2-2.5 million Euro each) all over the world. Every test bench cost 3000-10000 Euro (biggest engine has 13,600 flwhp) a day in fuel and supplies, definitely worth to focus on some essential sensors at a cost of a few 1000 Euro/year for recalibration. How does this look like in the tuner scene 😆? But I understand, they all need to feed their families. That is the cause I tune 99 % on street, the street has it's own rules, but as you know it, the street supplies a very good brake, and that is what tuning needs. The measurement is just last step for number and maybe IGT confirmation, but for most tuning tasks you don't need the dyno. Beside that, it is too expensive for many, last step = tuning, last money dried out before tuning, tuning budget = wifes annual present, which is declined for that year ;).
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It is Load dyno machine, first they do 5-6 short pulls (not to the red line) just driving car on dyno to calibrate machine /calculate losses for that car. When machine is calibrated than they go WOT ,4th gear on my car, and measure power. There is no operator input for adjusting RPM, whp to chp conversation or anything as all is done by software.

Person with BMW had some problem with with crank sensor , that is why it had dip in power at 2700rpm, and when he fixed it then he went to Revo/Bapro dyno again for retune and car made 261hp. Than he went to this other place with DynoJet and told them to run it in load setup and made 259hp so it is comparable when operator is not halfassing his job.



PS.
Finally "Throttle Body Radius Inlet" has been tested netting 6hp over standard inlet
@LotusElise what is you opinion on this

PS.
Finally "Throttle Body Radius Inlet" has been tested netting 6hp over standard inlet
@LotusElise what is you opinion on this

I saw an earlier video by that guy and I like the logic he is using for this part. You see something similar on lots of factory race cars but i'd never seen a good reason as to why.

As I understand it, the intake pipe is much wider up to the throttle body, this slows down the velocity of the flow and increases the pressure. Higher pressure going into throttle body / manifold is a good thing.
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Could be worthwhile making something.
I have measured and could fit 100mm v.stack on TB entry and have it go from 88mm to 100mm instead of 88mm to 72 or 74mm at tb entry. Dont remember what it is when fully open to the edge.
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Is the CU2 Intake camshaft a common mod for making more power out of a K24A3/A2 engine?
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