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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know this is one ass whooped dead decayed horse, but we have to just whack his bones a bit more. Here's the situation:

I have my 95 H22 Accord daily driver up for sale so that I can revive my CRX which I have had in storage for two years. The Accord has about 12,000 in receipts for all the shit on it, so it ought to pull some loot. Only problem is finding a buyer is a bit of a bitch. Well, I planned to go K20A for the CRX. I am a distributor for a certain East Coast importer, but unfortunately I just found out they aren't even getting K20a's yet.

Well when I found this out, I started thinking about the emergency option of going with an A2 swap. I see alot of people producing big numbers from the type s swaps so it almost seems that the K20a's power advantage is little. The big deal is the LSD. That's kind of the part I can't seem to get over. If I have to buy the Type S then LSD it, I am going to be matching my cost on a K20a swap. It seems I am going to lose out if I must go type s. Don't get me wrong, I want the K20a. If I can't get my dealer cost because my supplier isn't getting them though, I am gonna pay out the ass...and that hurts.

Like I said, I know the comparisons have been made. I searched this site and saw some perspectives, but generally it was people trying to save money. I will have the money to own either, but I wonder if going type s could open up some more funds to help pay for the K-pro. LSD is highly important here also, I can't be without it. It seems a real difficult situation, so let's put it like this.

Money isn't a factor, which is straight up the better buy. What gives you more in the end? If your building for ultimate power all motor, which motor is the better starting point? Basically, if your after the best in the long run, do you do what's necessary to get the K20a versus the A2?
 

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k20a ~ 5500
k20a2 ~ 3200

getting a lsd for the a2 wont equal the cost of the k20a. hell you could get a cusco lsd that's better than stock.

but if money is not a factor and you wanted to build a ultimate all motor. the type s is the way to go, in my opinion. in your quest to building "the ultimate all motor" you will end up swaping out all the goodies that you're paying extra for on the r motor anyways. for example the cams, valve springs, and ecu just for starters.

hope that helps you alittle. :cool:
 

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i was originally going to go k20a2...till i stumbled on this great deal for my k24a2...

k24a2= best k-series motor in my opinion
with simple bolt ons and kpro

215 whp and 182 wtq...simply insane

you can get em cheap too lol, check my siggie :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The only real reason I was always leaning away from the K24A2's were the fact that...one, it won't fit under my SiR front end. I really didn't want to alter the appearance of the stock appearance. I do suspect I could "buy" 19mm of extra clearance somehow although. The second reason was that the limited rev potential of the K24 bottom end led me away. No, I'm not a rev happy lame ass, I just hated "rowing" gears in my mildly built H22 hatch. That thing ripped through some gears, and it was some serious rowin.

I must admit though, maybe I didn't give it enough thought. Those torque numbers are pretty damn impressive. That would easily open up funds for a rock solid LSD and the Kpro.

See this is why asking other opinions is a great thing. I read several hours a day, and I weigh my options heavily. Opinions are sometimes a really good piece of insight. Those prices on those swaps are incredible though I must say. In that link I saw 2200 shipped on the entire swap...that's fuckin incredible.

Plus more rev can always come from going further with the internals...a goal down the road anyway. I still have a bit of time until this Accord sells but, I definitely have to consider it. I guess I just didn't really see much feedback on people putting in the K24A2's. Do you have any dyno graphs from one of these engines with the bolt ons and kpro putting out the numbers you quoted above? Just wanting to eyeball that torque curve.
 

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You dont even need a LSD just get some sticky ass tires a traction bar and your set.Lsd works best on a road course :cool: Key is to eliminate wheel hop :cool:Unlees you do want to road course it quife is good or os giken superlock
 

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You are a raising a good point. The higher compression of the k20a yileds more power as well.

If you have the funds... get a type-s swap in bad condition for $3000 max...

$1000 sleeve it, cp pistons $500, rods $700, cams+valvetrain around $1500 and you end up with one BAAAAAAAAD all motor K. Picking the right manilfold, TB, and K pro is still important but all the hard work is already done.

Total with labor, you are looking at $7700 with the K pro, but without LSD.. Now that would be a motor I would be interested in seeing.... :)
 

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98specR has a ponit. If your going all out for your motor get the K20A2. Like he said you're replacing all the internal parts anyway, so it makes no since to get the K20A when that $2000 difference can go towards building your K20A2.

K20A really "should" be for people who just want to do i/h/e, some mild cams and maybe a little higher compression(i.e aftermarket headgasket) oh and of course K-pro.

But a K20A2 sleeved, with CR 12:5:1 piston, rods, Crowler or IPS-K2 cams, crowler or other. Full vavletrain, Head Porting, ITB'S, Quaife LSD, Clutch, Lightened Flywheel, short shifter, DTR-Fab 4-1 Headers, 3" exhuast, and K-Pro.........Now that's for a Full All Motor Build!!!!! Oh and if it's in your budget get a 2005 Type-S Tranny. The Final drive is higher than the 04's(and the same as the Type-R or higher) and the 1-3rd gears are the same as the type-R tranny and the 4,5 and 6th gear is slighty longer than the type-R, which is good b/c you will have probably with good tuning about 270-300WHP so the extra length in those top gear would be better.

Hope this helps.
 

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Oh and that's not to say people who already bought a K20A and building it anyway is stupid. They probaly just wanted a Type-R motor or they were just going to do a little something to it, but later changed their mind and wanted to build.

Some people just want a type-R motor which once again is NOT in anyway way stupid.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Well yes, the initial performance is of course a factor when your doing a swap that can't manage to go under 7000.00 no matter what you do (unless you go A3 of course).

The deal is that I am a wholesaler and can H beams for just over 340.00 (for the K's, for B's and D's, much cheaper), as well as pistons, internals, etc. I am definitely in a deadlock though between the idea of the Type S versus the TSX though. Both have great potential no matter how you look at it...it really seems to come down to preference.

The initial cost of the two is quite close after Kpro and LSD, so its a bit of a toss. I found a K24A2's dyno with bolt ons/kpro and the torque curve is pretty damn impressive, not to say that the K20A2's isn't, just not quite as high.

This is truly a pretty tough decision. There are alot of different opinions out there on which is better, so I am just trying to narrow it down to a simple and clear reason that one is better than the other in my case. Both K24 blocks and K20 blocks are readily available so I could build while the swap is in and running, both have great out of the box potential, its tough.

In many ways, I feel though with a built bottom end to deal with the rod/stroke and increased thrust side friction, that the K24 has an advantage due to displacement. Four methods to increase an engines output come down to: Increase MEP, increase displacement, increase peak hp rpm, increase VE. Both the 2.0 and the 2.4 can equally take advantage of these factors when built, except the deck height of the K24 gives you more room to work with if you really want to manipulate it internally with rod length and stroke. I seem I am starting to feel sold on the K24A2 with a Type S tranny and a quaiffe. Anyone have any opinions on this point of view?
 

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You know how the k20a and k20a2 are kind of uncharted territory for tuning and mods? The tsx is even more uncharted. The idea of the motor in stock form sounds great... But if you are going to get rid of the pistons, rods, it starts getting tricky...

Other than one dyno from hotwheelz, noone else has K proed their TSX... The potential is there for sure.... There are still unknowns...

Is the tsx head better? What makes it better motor? Is the crank really different? Are the rods strong enough?

Basically, if a built tsx will give me exactly what a built k24a/k20a2 will,I am not sure if I want to mess with making the TSX swapable.. For the right price, it is a tempting choice... People on ebay were selling tsx swaps for$4000-$5000 a while back

I like the TSX motor in stock form for sure.. and it makes sense over matching k24a block and type s heads... There are a few assumptions we are making.. that is all... I would like to have answers to before I jump into anything.

Nikos
 

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RC000E said:
Both the 2.0 and the 2.4 can equally take advantage of these factors when built, except the deck height of the K24 gives you more room to work with if you really want to manipulate it internally with rod length and stroke. I seem I am starting to feel sold on the K24A2 with a Type S tranny and a quaiffe. Anyone have any opinions on this point of view?
Looks like you ansewered your question yourself... Do some more research on the K24a2 and I think you may find that there is no downside, especially if you are planning on doing a "FULL" build, and plan on ripping that bottom end apart and throwing some new rods, pistons, and maybe a new crank in there... :dance:

and by the way I am putting a TSX motor in my EK, and I am workin on a way to use the TSX tranny just incase you were interested...
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Yeah, I definitely looked at the TSX gearing vs. the other K trannies. It seems the gearing lends itself a bit more to the torque potential of the K24A2, but it may be a little slouchy due to the fact that is a luxury car for luxury customers. I am sure though a mix and match of some kind can be done, I haven't really looked into that much. Initially I was just going to grab the Type S tranny due to availability and throw in the LSD.

Nikos...Yeah, I kind of see that the K20's are the natural choice at this point. Given the limited number of people that are doing the swap due to cost and other factors, the TSX I think will naturally be the less chosen powerplant. That honestly was, in some ways, an appealing factor. The height and fitment issues in the EF chassis was a downside due to the fact I want to maintain the stock SiR front end appearance. I have made several prototype gauge clusters, mounting panels, and misc. parts from carbon fiber (wet layup), so using my SiR hood and raising the center "hump" 19mm then making a mold for a carbon repro. is something I can certainly do, thus maintaining a stock appearance....just a little exaggerated.

The fact that this is a "new" honda powerplant, it is definitely appealing that any of us doing the swap at this point have the ability to break some new ground. That's definitely a rare opportunity given the fact that the B's, D's, and H's have been built just about every way you can imagine.

I just think that, while creating a block to accomodate 2.4 liters of displacement naturally more room is a simple answer, I think this was still a Honda favor for builders. This is the new B20 bottom end basically, and with the B20's the only way to fight the rod stroke was to reduce compression height on the piston and squeeze a tad longer rod in there. 19mm in the new K24 bottom end definitely opens up some possibilities given how many crank variations are out there, and the fact that more Kseries variants may pop up sometime. Whether that's the route I will go personally or not is undecided, but .4 more liters is still an advantage. Fact is, is the saying "there is no replacement for displacement" is legitimate in many ways when your speaking from an all motor standpoint. Granted Honda's have definitely thrown that in alot of peoples faces with a big "ha!", but displacement still works, plain and simple.

What do you think Nikos?
 

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I am not a professional builder/tuner in case you don't know but this is my opinion...

A tsx or k24a/k20a2 frank built or not, makes good power and can make even more built etc...

When it comes to a dyno shoot out or something similar, the longer stroke will deliver in combination with the 2.4 liters etc...

So you have a 270whp frank.. The car will be great on a road course , I am pretty sure... But on the dragstrip... I have my doubts.. All these torque from 2000 and not enought revband to rev till you shift and all... I think that custom gears is maybe what would help... All tsx, types, ep3, type r gears and shafts are interchangble... So maybe there is combination that would work... maybe the stock would even work,, I have not done the calculations... But that is just what I think... judging form teams that have spent 250K to do the research like skunk2.... That 1.5 second of 1/4 mile time that devides gary's stock k20a block from skunk 2 1/4 of million dollar monster got me thinking.. The expondential curve is right there... the stock rods are not going to take any abuse... It really depends on what you want the car to do... and what you can afford to loose...

I have been thinking for a while about this.. I have seen no numbers on built franks... Whatever I did see was not all that...potential is there... I just cannot afford to waste a dime on this project without being almost certain it most likely work out.. There are not guarantees...

Sorry I am beating aroung the bush.. but I have not seen it with my own eyes. A k24a/k20a making 270 as it is supposed to.. I am like a journalist in search of the truth.. When I find it, you will know.. lol

Sorry if I am not helping... Just don;t want you to get stuck with a motor that is not ideal for you application...

I am getting a CRV longlbock with K pro and a type s into my EG>.. Once tuned and dynoed, I will add the k24a experimental cams... see what's up.. then go to a type s head... with cams... and then the sky is the limit.. I am taking my time because I want to document everything for everyone here and at the same time, $300 here, $200 there is better than all of it together.. Having 2 kids and a wife that hated the internet doens't help either :p
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Yeah, well like I said, out of the box performance after spending what's going to amount to almost 10,000.00 to get my CRX back roadworthy (been in storage so brakes, bearings, legalization, etc.), the motor is going to have to put out after bolt ons and Kpro. I did see the one K24A2 dyno with Kpro that produced 217 peakhp and 182lb/ft...and that torque curve was serious...torque PLANE I should say..not much curve about it..lol. The build phase will probably come in the next winter when I can have some down time.

I guess the unknown about it is what'll make it fun.
 
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