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Discussion Starter · #181 ·
This weekend was critical to getting to the first race... 3ish days away. Friday i picked up the car from the alignment shop... 3.6* up front, 1/8 inch toe out up front, 7.7 caster... 3.25* of camber out back, zero toe. my ride height is 4 1/2 inch up front and 4 3/8 inch out back... measured right next to the pinch weld.

SO... i know i dont want the front higher BUT the front springs are softer than the rear and you need a little reverse stagger to keep the rear end from getting wild under the brakes. The splitter will cover up a lot of those sins.

A big discovery on the alignment rack... people say "these cars like the rear to be slammed"... well messing with the car, i know why. At a certain height, when you raise the back of the car (like what happens when you brake hard) you get an aggressive dynamic toe out... in the rear. i have 1 inch of travel before dynamic toe kicks in... there will be some front spring tuning in my future i fear.

The following morning I headed south for some dyno time.
Tire Wheel Vehicle Car Automotive tire


The first pull hit 228hp... with a goal of detuning to 200hp we had our work cutout for us. Early on, we knew we had to cut the rev limiter down to even try to keep under the cap... 8300 it is.
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Since the motor was healthy... we decided to spend about 1 hour going through some theories on how folks could be using flash pro to circumvent the rules. All theories proved to be valid ways... unfortunately. There may be some track records that wont fall for decades because of how easy it could be to manipulate the rules and "system."

"Restrictor Plates" were deemed illegal 3 weeks ago. After i made 50mm - 60mm plates... great. I brought them anyway... i'd rather be horse power compliant and illegal on a technicality (restrictor plates were not mentioned in the rules, so therefore they are illegal).

We started playing with the drive by wire controls. These motors are so efficient that at 6400 rpms we started shutting the butterfly to only 80% open and it STILL was putting down 215ish hp. the results of playing with the butterfly also require a lot of air/fuel work. there were lots of lean and rich spots all over.

we ended up hitting 80% open at 6400 and kept closing it to 73% open at redline... to finally get legal.
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I'll be carrying 190-200hp from 6k - 8.3k... i think thats good enough for now. There is definitely room for improvement... for future tuning trips... but this thing should be a rocket ship for now.
 
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Technically i was supposed to be born into the redskins too... BUT my grandmother had other plans. See, sunday family dinners were really important to her... and my grandfather was "doing business" in the sky boxes in the old RFK stadium during redskins games.

Being Turkish... i'm the first born (and male) of the first born (also male)... culturally its "significant"

SO... when i was born, my grandmother (non english speaker) hid a Dallas Cowboys "onesie" in her purse... My dad and grandfather went out to smoke... my mom was passed out... my grandmother put me in the new Dallas Cowboys outfit...

I've been a fan ever since... mostly to stick it to my grandfather.
great story. I like the "doing business" by the grandfather. My grandfather was a senior officer in the secret service & part of a three member group called Trust (president, chief of defense, my grandfather) and was not allowed to share information, not even with his wife. I figured so we could always pass lie detector tests to prove he did not leak information. The things I do know about what he did was design the area code and zip code system, install red phones in all of the US Embassies linked back to the white house, and programmed nuclear arms passcodes daily to keep Russia at bay. I can only imagine things he took to his grave. After a 35 year stint, we know only a few things.

BTW, you are making nice power on that engine and set up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #183 ·
BTW, you are making nice power on that engine and set up.
I mean... each dyno is different... but at least the motor doesnt seem hurt for its age. IF i remove the engine this off season, i'm going to do valve springs/seats/retainers... and no matter what, i need to do the fuel system. The dyno shows im using 85% of my injectors, and i prefer to run them no higher than 70%... They dont like being run that high all the time.

any recommendations on injectors?

I'll likely do a fuel rail, pressure regulator, etc. (as the rule gets cleared up with any of my recommendations).
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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we ended up hitting 80% open at 6400 and kept closing it to 73% open at redline... to finally get legal.
You chose the hard way. Nice result anyway :)!

any recommendations on injectors?
Fuel economy included: RDX injectors, but please flow test them before to match them with the ECU.
 

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Discussion Starter · #185 ·
You chose the hard way. Nice result anyway :)!

Fuel economy included: RDX injectors, but please flow test them before to match them with the ECU.
i chose the technically legal way to do it.... hard or not. stupid rules.

I've bought two sets of RDX new ... you are right, you need to flow test them and match them up lol... because for a honda part they arent always the best flowing. i was thinking about going aftermarket.
 

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any recommendations on injectors?
I am using RDX injectors b/c I have a simple K20a2 build that has typical bolt-ons with DIC. Markus was educating me on the Bosch dual spray pattern injectors, those seem to be what I would use if I was not going with the RDX ones.

I am using a modified oem fuel rail that has two entry points (-6AN from AEM pump) and one pressure inlet (-6AN line from rail to FPR) which divides the rail evenly. I plan to use ceramic coating to reduce heat soak some. I am using two fuel filters, the one on the fuel rail is for quick visual testing for debris in the system before it hits the fuel rail. In the pics below do not show how everything is buffed clean and flush on the top side of the rail where the hanger clips used to be.

1st fuel filter = Fuelab Fuel Filter, 40 Micron SS Element, -6AN Inlet/Outlet (81811-1)
2nd fuel filter = Vibrant Inline 3pc. Fuel Filter Set -6AN (VPE-16736)

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i chose the technically legal way to do it.... hard or not. stupid rules.

I've bought two sets of RDX new ... you are right, you need to flow test them and match them up lol... because for a honda part they arent always the best flowing. i was thinking about going aftermarket.
I need to have my RDX injectors tested as well.
 

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This weekend was critical to getting to the first race... 3ish days away. Friday i picked up the car from the alignment shop... 3.6* up front, 1/8 inch toe out up front, 7.7 caster... 3.25* of camber out back, zero toe. my ride height is 4 1/2 inch up front and 4 3/8 inch out back... measured right next to the pinch weld.

SO... i know i dont want the front higher BUT the front springs are softer than the rear and you need a little reverse stagger to keep the rear end from getting wild under the brakes. The splitter will cover up a lot of those sins.

A big discovery on the alignment rack... people say "these cars like the rear to be slammed"... well messing with the car, i know why. At a certain height, when you raise the back of the car (like what happens when you brake hard) you get an aggressive dynamic toe out... in the rear. i have 1 inch of travel before dynamic toe kicks in... there will be some front spring tuning in my future i fear.

The following morning I headed south for some dyno time.
View attachment 107999

The first pull hit 228hp... with a goal of detuning to 200hp we had our work cutout for us. Early on, we knew we had to cut the rev limiter down to even try to keep under the cap... 8300 it is.
View attachment 108001
View attachment 108000

Since the motor was healthy... we decided to spend about 1 hour going through some theories on how folks could be using flash pro to circumvent the rules. All theories proved to be valid ways... unfortunately. There may be some track records that wont fall for decades because of how easy it could be to manipulate the rules and "system."

"Restrictor Plates" were deemed illegal 3 weeks ago. After i made 50mm - 60mm plates... great. I brought them anyway... i'd rather be horse power compliant and illegal on a technicality (restrictor plates were not mentioned in the rules, so therefore they are illegal).

We started playing with the drive by wire controls. These motors are so efficient that at 6400 rpms we started shutting the butterfly to only 80% open and it STILL was putting down 215ish hp. the results of playing with the butterfly also require a lot of air/fuel work. there were lots of lean and rich spots all over.

we ended up hitting 80% open at 6400 and kept closing it to 73% open at redline... to finally get legal.
View attachment 108002

I'll be carrying 190-200hp from 6k - 8.3k... i think thats good enough for now. There is definitely room for improvement... for future tuning trips... but this thing should be a rocket ship for now.
Boy that is one strong 2.0 laying down almost 230 first pull. Almost a shame to take all those ponies away from it 😅 but rules are rules I guess. Best of luck out there 👍
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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I've bought two sets of RDX new ... you are right, you need to flow test them and match them up lol... because for a honda part they arent always the best flowing. i was thinking about going aftermarket.
I wouldn't change to aftermarket injectors. I've tested quite a few, from BOSCH over Magneti Marelli up to ID's. There are few supplying a such fine spray pattern like the RDX does. And from the worst spray pattern and fuel atomization (= ID's) to the best (RDX, BOSCH) there is a difference of 7 hp. You also could hear the difference, the noise was more dry and crispy, which is a good indicator of a sufficient combustion.

Regarding fuel rail, definitely no dead end system, always flushed through, as the imbalance increases on dead end systems. Also bigger fuel rail diameters lowers the drive by velocity as well as higher fuel pressure (= less pressure control bypass flow flux), which also improves the fuel atomization in some cases.
 

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Discussion Starter · #191 ·
With some hurt to spray pattern you can decap the nozzle end of type s injectors they will flow around 520cc not sure about your rules you have to run by.
if i'm going to have to go back to the dyno... i'll get good injectors and not decap. I'm cheap but i'm not broke lol.

Boy that is one strong 2.0 laying down almost 230 first pull. Almost a shame to take all those ponies away from it 😅 but rules are rules I guess. Best of luck out there 👍
I told the tuner when i picked up the car at sea level it did 225.5... he told me to make some restrictor plates just in case... i get there and he says "i'm going to let it rip, i might get out of it if it goes too lean.." so he warms up the car, gets the hubs set to roll... goes through the pull and all i hear is "f******KKKKK! we have more power to pull."

we then went through some theories on how to "hide" power... which all worked... and then we went into all the math for killing power in the motor. Taking power out isnt bad when you can fatten up the curve. The next trick is going to be to add back torque.

I wouldn't change to aftermarket injectors. I've tested quite a few, from BOSCH over Magneti Marelli up to ID's. There are few supplying a such fine spray pattern like the RDX does. And from the worst spray pattern and fuel atomization (= ID's) to the best (RDX, BOSCH) there is a difference of 7 hp. You also could hear the difference, the noise was more dry and crispy, which is a good indicator of a sufficient combustion.

Regarding fuel rail, definitely no dead end system, always flushed through, as the imbalance increases on dead end systems. Also bigger fuel rail diameters lowers the drive by velocity as well as higher fuel pressure (= less pressure control bypass flow flux), which also improves the fuel atomization in some cases.
these were recommended to me... IN600 Bosch EV14 Fuel Injector Set Honda Acura K20 K24 Dodge SRT-4

i'm okay with RDX injectors... i just know i need to buy at least two sets to make a balanced set according to my injector guy.
 

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Discussion Starter · #195 ·
What is the meaning of decap here? Wordly translated to cut of a cap of something? I am a bit lost in my translation, need help to find back the road again.

essentially they just remove the screen.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Absolutely hurts proper fuel spray pattern.
Most of the carburetor would have worked better. As with a quote of my daughter: "Dad we aren't in the 90'ies of the last century, we are in the 20'ies today" when she complains about my to do list for her at the weekends :D, anyway, a homogenized fuel-air mixture is a basic condition for a proper combustion in a homogenized, external ignited, lambda-1 combustion process. So we shouldn't be like in the 20'ies of the last century, we should do it like in the 20'ies of today, well atomized as we have all in the shelfs available.
 

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Discussion Starter · #199 ·
"Quick" Weekend Recap (with no pictures because i dont have any worth sharing lol):

This car feels right about where the old car left off. you cant compare lap times because at this tight track, weather plays a HUGE role in lap times. BUT for comparison, I was within .7 seconds of my old cars best time.

This car pushes HARD. Maybe the autox guys dont have heat in the tires... but this car doesnt get loose at all. I need to fix that because i'm burning down front tires already... also the car is very tight. I need to strike a good balance. This track requires a loose car and the next track wants a more neutral car...

On day one i struggled with cooking the front tires AND with getting into 4th and 6th gear. both lost 1-1.5 seconds per lap (almost 3 seconds when i over heat the tires AND miss ONE shift). I did notice that the clutch has to be all the way on the floor to shift... i slowed down my shift for 6th... things were different on day 2.

My first race in the car and i was able to place 4th... with a TON of time on the table. I'm back at the front of the middle of the pack... the front pack was probably +20 seconds ahead of me. but there is so much potential.... we have work to do.

so after the first race, we let the car cool down and we checked everything out... i was going to add more rear toe to get the car to rotate... well reading the tires, thats not a good idea right now. we rotated the tires and finished a nut and bolt check (an evening ritual at the track) and i settled with just adjusting air pressures (down 1 psi up front and up 1 psi in the rear).

race 2 was lining up to be a mess. the rookie went out for the qualifying race when no one else did... that put him on the pole. the guys were all fine with it... we all coached up the rookie and i told him "run it hard, try to get on someones bumper... learn as much as you can"

in race 2 i adjusted my driving style to help the car rotate. my old car was very happy with smooth in, smooth out... slow and steady hands. I started playing around with quick turn in motions and smoothing out my throttle... it helped keep my tires under me... leading to me pulling my fastest laps between lap 15 and 19 of the 22 lap race. I was able to drop times from race 1, where my competitors were only able to stay even at best. most of my competitors were slower by 1 second. BUT it was good enough for 3rd.

I need to adjust the clutch and possible move to smaller rear tires for the next event. I dont really want to spend the money on tires because i like the "square tire" idea... and i know a spring change is in my future.
 
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Discussion Starter · #200 ·
if you want to know how to drive SLOWLY at summit point... here is your video. the end is a smidge exciting.

 
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