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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Anyone know of any good articles to read about running ethanol or methanol? Would you run pure ethanol or a blend of ethanol/gas like e-85? Im pretty sure people running meth are running pure methanol (or may M-85?), so if someone could explain the difference between ethanol and methanol for a race engine, i would really appreciate it. thanks. :up:
 

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Im pretty sure you can only use methanol on a full race car because it is very corrosive and will eat away at fuel lines unless they are cleaned regularly.
 

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Jfo122 said:
Im pretty sure you can only use methanol on a full race car because it is very corrosive and will eat away at fuel lines unless they are cleaned regularly.

you will also need to retrofit ur fuel pump for methanol....all the seals need to be replaced
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
yah i was aware of that, and i no that methanol u need to run about 6-7:1 fuel ratio and ethanol is around 8-9:1 fuel ratio...but i was more concerned with the luberication of the motor...cause gasoline has lubericants within it. Thats why i was considering using e85 or m85 for a race fuel to help prolong the life of the motor.
 

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I would suggest adding a top lube to your methanol. We use it in one of the drag cars that I work on. As far as ethanol vs. methanol is concerned, for a drag purposes in my own oppinion I would use 100% methanol.

As for your question about e-85... e-85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gas. The main reason for such a mixture is that under cold
start conditions the gas aides to help ignite the fuel. Pure ethanol would be much more difficult to start under cold conditions and methanol would be even harder.

Methanol vs. Ethanol 101


If you compare the chemical compositions of both methanol( CH3OH ) and ethanol( C2H5OH ) you can see that even though the molecular structure of both ethanol and methanol only have one molecule of oxygen, in relelvance to the atomic mass of the molecules, there would be more oxygen in a gallon of methanol then in a gallon of ethanol.

So what does this really mean?
Basically this means that ethanol will burn leaner then methanol. In terms of gas, gas will burn leaner then both methanol and ethanol. This leads us to the next discussion.

Now we start to look at things a little further in terms of BTU's.
In lame terms a BTU is a scientific unit of measurement that has been given to fuels to denote the amount of energy requierd to increase the temp of 1 pound of water by 1 degree Farenheit. Now keep in mind that it is more complicated, but for everyone's sake I am trying to keep it simple!! Trust me it will all make sense in a bit. If we were to put the three fuels in order we would see that Gasoline (100 Octane) would have a higher BTU number than Ethanol and Methanol would have the lowest BTU number out of the three fuels. The lower the BTU number for a fuel, the less energy has to be used to achieve the same results as the other fuels. Ethanol will the achieve the same results as methanol but use more energy to do so.

Why would we want a fuel that uses less energy?
We want a fuel that uses less energy (a fuel with a lower BTU number) because the less energy used, the lower the temperatures will be when the fuel is burning. On the flip side, the more energy used (Higher BTU number) the higher tempertures will be when the fuel is burning. Now you can learn more about how energy produces heat but you can save that for your own personal enjoyment.

Now we have finally concluded how fuels relate to cylinder temperatures! If you don't know how cylinder temp is related to tuning, then there is probably no secret as to why you are lost in this post. Well for those of you who have been following, we now have a way to lower cylinder temp. Now it is time to bump up the compression, play with some timing and have some fun.

Understand that methanol is not some magical fuel that will create horsepower for every application. Stock motors with low compression and methanol may produce too low of cylinder temps which in turn will hurt the performace of your vehicle. There are so many more concepts to grasp and a simple post such as this one does not come close to explaining every aspect.

Many people choose not to use methanol because it is corrosive to metals. Be aware that if you decided to run methanol, simple procedures such as rinsing the lines out with gas will help the longevity of parts that come in contact with methanol.

Another issue is the contamination of oil in methanol powered engines. If your oil becomes milky after a weekend of racing do not confuse it with a blown headgasket. The milky oil is a direct result of a chemical reaction that causes hydrogenation of the oil. The effects can be greatly diminished through tuning an engine across the entire RPM range.

**Please note that I am not a bio chemist and what I have stated has been over-simplified for many of us to comprehend with little effort. Please feel free to correct me if you find any errors in what I have stated. FOr the most part I think most of you guys will find it intersting. If you want to learn more feel free to write me back and I will try to answer some of your

questions.**

Enjoy,

Derek
SSR engineering
(Formally DTR-FAB)
 

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Very good write up. What static and dynamic compression ratios have seamed to be optimum under high boost (40-50lbs.) applications for both fuels? I realize that all motors vary on what they like, but assuming it has the 4 valve pentvalve head (common Honda). The piston skirt clearance can be tightened withthe lower cylinder temps., but do you find a gain in primary exhaust tube changes vs. gas?
 

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22crazy said:
Anyone know of any good articles to read about running ethanol or methanol? Would you run pure ethanol or a blend of ethanol/gas like e-85? Im pretty sure people running meth are running pure methanol (or may M-85?), so if someone could explain the difference between ethanol and methanol for a race engine, i would really appreciate it. thanks. :up:
I'd reccomend starting here,
<http://e85forum.com/index.php> and then going here <http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4>

You should be able to find ALL the information about E85 you could ever need to know.
I'm coverting my RSX-S engined, IPS cammed, race header equipped autocross car to E85. I installed 550cc injectors, set the fuel trim to +75% and fired her up. She runs and drives fine. I will be verifying the A/F ratios tommorow and fine tune the fuel levels.
Del Long
 

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sprinto7 said:
I'd reccomend starting here,
<http://e85forum.com/index.php> and then going here <http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4>

You should be able to find ALL the information about E85 you could ever need to know.
I'm coverting my RSX-S engined, IPS cammed, race header equipped autocross car to E85. I installed 550cc injectors, set the fuel trim to +75% and fired her up. She runs and drives fine. I will be verifying the A/F ratios tommorow and fine tune the fuel levels.
Del Long
Seems really interesting. I wonder how well it'll go with the turbo. Do you have some sort of write-up on what needs to be done? (Not like I'll be doing the conversion.. we are always behind in technology here in Canada).
 

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petah said:
Seems really interesting. I wonder how well it'll go with the turbo. Do you have some sort of write-up on what needs to be done? (Not like I'll be doing the conversion.. we are always behind in technology here in Canada).
The 2 web site I listed go into great detail, but it may take a little searching of the 2 sites to dig it out.
I'm normally aspirated so your on your own with turbo.
Del Long
 

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sprinto7 said:
I'd reccomend starting here,
http://e85forum.com/index.php and then going here
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4
You should be able to find ALL the information about E85 you could ever need to know.
I'm coverting my RSX-S engined, IPS cammed, race header equipped autocross car to E85. I installed 550cc injectors, set the fuel trim to +75% and fired her up. She runs and drives fine. I will be verifying the A/F ratios tommorow and fine tune the fuel levels.
Del Long
how is the car running after the tune with E85?
 

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Ethanol (E-85 for most of us) is a great fuel
for dual use engines.

As the post alluded to above, you'll get at least 5%
more power. You will have to use ~20% more fuel.

Best thing about it, it's cheap and available at many local
filling stations.

It doesn't run really well on a stock controller, most have preset
maps for warmup and open loop, so the engine runs very lean.
Closed loop, the O2 will attempt to add enough fuel, as it measures
O2 content (stoich) for any fuel. You can attempt to add fuel by
using 20% larger injectors.

We have two exact same cars, one w/ a Megasquirt running E-85.
It will easily outpower the other car, even though it has a header w/
S&S merge.

No experience w/ turbocharged engines, but several people
are running crazy boost. E-85 not only has triple digit octane,
but cools the charge more than gasoline.
 

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back from the dead.. are those of you who posted in this thread using a gas methanol (or ethanol) mix.. or are you running full on m85 (or e85)
 

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how is the car running after the tune with E85?
Sorry it took so long to get back to this note.
The car has been running fine. I haven't fine tuned it, or tuned it for that matter, but I did log the Lambda readings with my Inovate and it's very close by just adding 65% to the gasoline Hondata settings.
I'm VERY hapy with the way it performs.

Del Long
 

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i'm sorry for my english... ehehehe

An ethanol, in contrast of the gasoline, is a pure substance (etanol), even so either found in the gas stop as being one it mixes of 95% of etanol and 5% of water, in volume. It is a molecule whose formula is C2H5OH. For having oxygen in the composition, the molecule gains a polarity that makes with that the alcohol is liquid to the ambient temperature (the etano, C2H6 is a gas) for the biggest cohesion between molecules. It is a fuel that does not leave splodges, being well more “clean” that the gasoline, in contrast of what it was thought about the first years. It has the disadvantage of being more corrosive in the liquid state that the gasoline, what demand an anticorrosive treatment in the metals that they have contact with the alcohol in its liquid phase, normally through an covering with a metal that does not react with it, as nickel.

Stoichiometric ratio:

The ethanol has stoichiometric ratio of 8,4:1 (8,4 air parts for each ethanol part) in mass, while the gasoline has 13,5:1. For the same air mass, the ethanol mass is used 60% more than. In volume, 43% of ethanol of what are necessary more of gasoline. For this, peaks for ethanol have that to have an outflow around 50% greater of what peaks for gasoline. An interesting thing that elapses of that is the following one: Although the gasoline to more supply 37.5% of energy, the fact of to be necessary 43% more than the ethanol the mixture makes with that an engine gains around 5% of torque and power alone to start to burn ethanol.

Octane

The ethanol has a greater to be able antiknock of what the gasoline. While the common gasoline has 85 octanes, the ethanol has the equivalent the 110 octanes. This means that it obtains to support greater compression without blowing up spontaneously. This makes with that an engine the ethanol can have a tax of bigger compression of what an engine the gasoline. While the taxes for gasoline vary between 9 and 10,5:1, the rates for ethanol are between 12 and 14:1. As the thermal efficiency of an engine (thermal efficiency is how many % of the energy of the fuel are transformed into movement for the engine) it increases as increases its compression rate, the engines the ethanol tend to have a bigger thermal efficiency of what an engine the gasoline, compensating part of the minor to be able calorific. Thus, our engine would not make only 7,27 km/liter, would make something between 7,5 and 8 km/liter, had the optimum exploitation of the energy combustible it. The speed of the flame of the ethanol is lesser, demanding bigger advances of ignition.
 

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Yes, I agree. I'm quite certain my K20A2 would make more power than it does now with a proper "tune". One of the reasons I did not play with the ingition timing is the "experts" could not agree on wether ethanol needed more or less advance. They all agreed Methanol needed more advance, but they were devided on ethanol.
As it is, I have to be very carefull when I apply throttle to my 1420 pound car or tthe rear tires will break loose. This is an Autocross only car.
Del Long
 
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