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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi. I always wanted to dyno every single modification on a k24. I started before christmas, and Im not finished yet. There is so much different stuff to test!

I had some questions I wanted to find an answer to:
•K24 oilpump & balancers, how many hp sits there?
•what mods is the most economical ones? I want to find which parts gives most "bang for the bucks".
•RSP, RRC & RBC, differences? But what is the differences with bigger TB?
•What is the gains if the RRC & RBC mani's are fully ported?
•bigger TB, when? What size?
•e85?
•Oem Honda cams, but which ones? K24a2, k20a2, JDM k20A or k20z? Which on exhaust and which on the intakeside?
•higher CR?
•ported head?

Well, Im not there yet, and some will I proberbly never find the answer on. There is some stuff that I keep simple and free flowing, like the exhaust. Started with stock CL9 dual exhaust anf recently I switched to a custom 3". Im not gonna try a smaller one. No need for that, have seen it on the dyno time after time, 3" always provide the best results. If you think its too loud, then think about 3 BIG silencers:) (hatchbacks proberbly dont have the space for those..)
Airfilter was stock in the beginning, now its K-tuned 3" Cold air for EG/DC2 with velocitystack (seen great results before with that one too).

[email protected], STOCK (146whp)
[email protected], Hondata Flashpro & quick tuning
[email protected], as above + Spark plugs
[email protected], as above + K-tuned 3"airfilter w Velocitystack. (165whp)
[email protected], as above + 72mm TB & portmatched entry in the manifold.
[email protected], as above but with oem TB + RSP-mani
[email protected], as above + no cat
[email protected], as above + k20a2 oilpump
[email protected], as above + 50 VTC-gear + 72mm TB
[email protected], as above + Header PLM 4-2-1 (195whp)
[email protected], as above + 3"exhast (need to go back to this and investigate)
[email protected], as above + RRC mani (stock mani and with 72mm TB, so there is a big schart edge for the air to pass in the entry of RRC)(need to port the entry)


Have gone from 146whp to 202-203whp! Thats 57whp!!!



http://www.hondaklubben.com/forum/download/file.php?id=6490&mode=view
-green line is STOCK
-red is with header and 3"exhaust
-blue is with RRC
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Here in sweden you pay $50 for a used RSP, and it made 11hk. So its very good power-to-cash ratio. And the characerists is very much like the k24a2/3 aka RBB manifold. RSP didnt want so much VTC. Almost like stock. Very good and strong idle and low rpms.

The RRC needs alot more tuning below 2000rpm to get soft and smooth during wintertime with snow and ice outside.
RRC is a tad weaker between 2000-4600rpm, the real takeoff is after 5800rpms! Thats were all the gains is.

Next is to try the skunk2 Ultra Street manifold, after that E85.(or E75 proberbly during this cold time of year).
 

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I seen you said you wanted to investigate why the 3 inch pipe made no power over the previous configuration, At 200whp, a 2.5" pipe is sufficient for flow and would be plenty enough after cat deletes. 2.5" exhaust will flow enough for 275-300hp.
 

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Thanks for the detailed description of the manifolds. Did not know the rsp was cheap here (I'm from Norway/trondheim).

S2US will be interesting. From the testing Andrej has done you might not gain anything below 7500 compared to RRC.

E70 will probably gain a little bit.

How is the fitment of these manifolds in the Accord chassis? And what year is yours? Did not know you can use flash pro on the cl9.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The guys here with Civic Type R FN2 wants RRC or skunk2 manifolds. So there is alot of old used RSPs lying in their garages. For them its just a ugly piece of metal. :)

My Accord is a -03. But its 99,5% the same thrue all the years 03-08. My last accord that I sold 5years ago was a -08 Type S Special Edition.
With that one I used dual ecu's and kpro. It was alot of headache with that, like no cruise controll and no MIL for the kpro etc.
Nowadays Hondata made the flashpro work with it. All I had to do was to install a TSX ecu 07-08 and a one wire to the multiplexor. (0,5m wire above the glove box).
Now VSA and Cruise and that sort of stuff works fine. (I do hate to wait that 90seconds when uploading the calibration to flashpro!!)

There is ALOT of space in a Accord CL9 enginebay! Rotrex, mercracing big superchargerkitt, turbokits, BIG manifolds, itbs, whatever you want fits in that bay!! Its made for a v6 to fit!

http://www.moibbk.com/images/acura-tsx-engine-9.jpg
http://jrphotodesign.net/euror/2012.11.03/_DSC0075.jpg
http://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/s480x480/e35/16230360_976396702490300_8278757734594117632_n.jpg?ig_cache_key=MTQ0NTE3Nzk1ODM5Nzg3NDMxMg==.2
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I seen you said you wanted to investigate why the 3 inch pipe made no power over the previous configuration, At 200whp, a 2.5" pipe is sufficient for flow and would be plenty enough after cat deletes. 2.5" exhaust will flow enough for 275-300hp.
My stock exhaust measured 48mm on the outside just after the first silencer. Thats like 43-45mm inside(thats 1.75"!!).

EVERY k20 and k24 I have seen on the dyno with 70mm-76mm(2.75'-3')has made MORE horsepower than similiar setups with 2.5" or smaller exhausts.

Like one FN2 with K20z4, skunk2 mani and intake, j35 TB, toda replica header and Drag cartel cams. Changing from a Matrelius 55mm exhaust to a invidia 70mm gained 22hp!!! (Before we both that 70mm we just welded a sidepipe straight from the header to find out if it was the catback that was holding down the power. The sidepipe gave 23hp more than the Martelius..).

Also a EP3 type R (I made a thread here like 2months ago about that car) gained 11hp going from Buddyclub 63,5mm(2,5") to K-tuned oval 3".

So now on my k24 that I had pushed almost 50whp more than stock from but still with stock exhaust I thought that I would se like 10-15hp going fronm 48mm to 76mm. Or at least some power gains. But no, nada! That is strange. Made it was the limit for the RSP manifold that hold it back, hard to say. I NEED to put the stock exhaust back on and measure it on the dyno WITH the RarC mani. Then I will know!
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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...modification on a k24.
[email protected], STOCK (146whp)
[email protected], Hondata Flashpro & quick tuning
[email protected], as above + Spark plugs
[email protected], as above + K-tuned 3"airfilter w Velocitystack. (165whp)
[email protected], as above + 72mm TB & portmatched entry in the manifold.
[email protected], as above but with oem TB + RSP-mani
[email protected], as above + no cat
[email protected], as above + k20a2 oilpump
[email protected], as above + 50 VTC-gear + 72mm TB
[email protected], as above + Header PLM 4-2-1 (195whp)
[email protected], as above + 3"exhast (need to go back to this and investigate)
[email protected], as above + RRC mani (stock mani and with 72mm TB, so there is a big schart edge for the air to pass in the entry of RRC)(need to port the entry)
I just can say thank you malkolm666 for sharing your huge effort on that interesting investigation. Sad, there is no overlay of torque lines in one graph, would be interesting to see the quality difference beside that two points of the torque line.

To your diameter related exhaust recognition. Did you see any difference of the cam phasing between stock and 3" exhaust? Any difference in igntion timing. Normally the residual exhaust content in the combustion chamber get
s reduced due to the lower exhaust gas pressure in the exhaust system and an advance of ign. timing and VTC can be observed. If there is nothing of that viewable, my next question would be, did you only change the pipe diameter or and the muffler too?

I appreciate your investigation effort, many thanks for it :up:

Markus
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Markus, you are spot on!

I changed both the piping and the mufflers/silencers. 3 kinda big 76mm straight true silencers. 1 is round with an inner empty chamber in the middle, the other two is oval.

First run without changing the map I actually lost some power, about 4-5hp. So I had to change both VTC and put more ignition on to climb up to the same horsepowers.
With the old exhaust it didnt like high VTC nor high ignition. Vtc was at max 25 (except at 4200-4600rpms). But most common was like 17-22degrees.
Ignition was never higher than 24degrees.
I have tried so many times, after every mod to increase VTC and Ignition, but it has everytime said -No! To me. It was really easy to see the signs, it directly and really showed what it didnt like. Hugh differens in knock level and a difference in 3degrees of VTC could lower the power with 10hp! The same with ignition, 2 degrees too much gave troubles direct.

Now with the new exhaust it never talk to me that way, I can do BIG changes with VTC and ignition and it just swallows it. 5degrees VTC usually only change 0-2hp. Nice and smooth. Ive been up on 28-29degrees with the ignition and that was no problems. Max power was around 27degrees.

http://www.hondaklubben.com/forum/download/file.php?id=6489&mode=view
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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With the old exhaust it didnt like high VTC nor high ignition. Vtc was at max 25 (except at 4200-4600rpms). But most common was like 17-22degrees. Ignition was never higher than 24degrees...Now with the new exhaust it never talk to me that way, I can do BIG changes with VTC and ignition and it just swallows it. 5degrees VTC usually only change 0-2hp. Nice and smooth. Ive been up on 28-29degrees with the ignition and that was no problems. Max power was around 27degrees.
To get the picture clear, I need more information about the difference of the calibrations of both: actually and previous.

My actual understanding is, previous setup did talk clearly where it like it most concerning intake cam and igntion timing.
  • The VTC was like maximum at 25° and declining to 17° at peak power engine speed. Actually you can advance but it reacts indifferent to it. Where is max advance VTC angle? And what are the numbers of the last calibration at WOT?
  • Ignition-wise a increase of 3° ca. was possible with the new header and exhaust setup. Here I would like to know which exhaust setup you did test finally.
From that what I see for know - and there is a huge input gap to complete the picture - the exhaust pressure wave timing is kind of wrong, I would have expected VTC values in the bandwidth of 4-6 krpm beyond 30°, partly up to 45°.

Root causes could be the exhaust cam centerline is not at stock position, header is having a bigger leckage,..., up to the neglibility of valve lash is to tight :D. But all that is just guessing without a clear engine setup, claibration, a WOT log and the troque lines in a graph. But one I can say, if the engine don't talk clear to you on VTC, there is something wrong in installation, setup or electric.

BTW, too much spot light reduces the foresight...I just want to help and learn :).

Markus
 

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thank you for testing all of these parts!
I have a question... was the rsp better than the rrc for daily driving ( low rpms )?
Was the difference huge? or not so noticeable?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Here is the graph, can you see it?
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
thank you for testing all of these parts!
I have a question... was the rsp better than the rrc for daily driving ( low rpms )?
Was the difference huge? or not so noticeable?
I dont want to answer this question yet. I need to tune it with RRC below 1500rpms first.


Btw I dailydrive it every day. And this morning we got some more snow. So I needed to drive the kids to school, driving to my work, and today after work Im going to a big mall, need to buy groceries.

My kids love going in my car, my wife hates to drive it!
The reason she dont like it is my clutch, to my knowledge the LIGHTEST there is to K-serie. Its a CC hyper series single clutch. Unsprung and total weight INCLUDE the flywheel is like 7,80kg.

What I want to say is that is DD for one person may not be driveable for someone else.
2% off the time I just LOVE my clutch, its so nice when driving hard and is good when streetracing to a Merc or audi or bmw :)
The rest of the time (like 98% of it) I dont like it.

Before and after RRC
Even with all the mods I did before I installed the RRC, the car had lots of torque and good power, but it was flat and boring on the top. It was no fun revving after 6000rpm. I love Honda charactar, but that was gone.
But then I added the RRC! Wow, now I have torquesteer in 2nd gear and its really fun from 6000-7600! Love it!
I will never go back to RBB or RSP manifold.
 

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Before and after RRC
Even with all the mods I did before I installed the RRC, the car had lots of torque and good power, but I was flat and boring on the top. I was no fun revving after 6000rpm. I love Honda charactar, but that was gone.
But then I added the RRC! Wow, now I have torquesteer in 2nd gear and its really fun from 6000-7600! Love it!
I will never go back to RBB or RSP manifold.
That's exactly what I've also experienced on my RRC vs. RSP manifold comparison!
 

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Thanks for posting this info! Very few TSX/CL9 guys mod their engine to this degree or at least post about it.

I'm running a RSP manifold in my 08 TSX as well, and as you know there is tons of room in the engine bay. I wish I could see the graph of the RSP vs RRC comparison.

Thats interesting the 3" exhaust didn't pick up any power over the stock exhaust. Here was an interesting comparison of a 3" setup in our chassis. Make sure you read all the way to the bottom of the page.
http://www.tsxclub.com/forums/1st-gen-engine/36591-official-dyno-charts-thread-18.html
 

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Your header is holding power.

Just dyno tuned cl9 k24a3 230hp & 260nm
-rsp mani
-3" ex
-dc 4-2-1
-ktuner

Low vtc 25, high vtc 22-20

Same setup with 4-1 header liked 45vtc on high cam
and made +10hp and 20nm more.


Here is toda 4-2-1 vs 4-1 header on 2,5" ex


2,5" vs 3" with 4-1


Gained 20hp & 30nm in the middle and 15hp & 12nm peak with
bigger exhaust.

If your header is holding it you wont benefit from
bigger exhaust. :)
 
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