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that looks pretty good and I understand the the purpose behind it, should work well. care to post the part numbers and from where?
 

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thinkin about going with brian crower stg 3 cam with brian crower dual spring and tite. retainer... i'll definitly need one of those huh? and if it was to be produced, can i get one of them? haha and how much?
 

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Discussion Starter · #186 ·
that looks pretty good and I understand the the purpose behind it, should work well. care to post the part numbers and from where?
it's actually the design i wanted to try from the start. but it took me some time to spec a spring and then find a place to make it for me. This is actually the 2nd spring spec i've had to have made b/c the 1st one didn't work out right. Plus, being in school means I get distracted a lot. I finally got the time to track down a spring supplier. So now comes the easy part.

Once I test it, I'll consider putting out the details of it. If it doesn't work, the specs are useless.

I've put one together and done some testing on it, and it should suit the intended purpose very very nicely. :)
 

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I eagerly await your results!!! I have a new motor about to go in and I would much rather have the tensioner modded/upgraded before it does!!



E.
 

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OEM and IPS combos seem to be experiencing the fewest tensioner issues. I ran an OEM tensioner for 120k+ miles starting with type-s cams, moving on to type-r cams with the yellow/red valves spring combo, revving to 8700 the whole time. Never had a problem.

Just goes to show that the problem is localized to a few specific factors.
cool that's what i'm gonna be running..ips oem combo and prc cams.
hytech also has some great stuff and has done some extensive research to minimize/eliminate failure with the oem timing chain tensioners. he stated somewhere here developing road racing cams and running the oem timing chain tensioner all season with no problems...and i haven't heard of anyone having failure with hytech cams yet..and that's who i would go with, if not IPS, assuming i had over a grand to spend on cams lol
 

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this is inline with my latest design. :)
Good to hear. I figure the teeth are wearing while the motor is ran, then during cold start (especially higher compression set-ups) the catch is slipping on the worn teeth. This isn't noticed until total failure at higher RPM due to incorrect timing. Hopefully this solves both the wearing of the teeth and the initial compression of the piston at start up, while allowing enough give to keep the chain from stretching/snapping.
 

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it's actually the design i wanted to try from the start. but it took me some time to spec a spring and then find a place to make it for me. This is actually the 2nd spring spec i've had to have made b/c the 1st one didn't work out right. Plus, being in school means I get distracted a lot. I finally got the time to track down a spring supplier. So now comes the easy part.

Once I test it, I'll consider putting out the details of it. If it doesn't work, the specs are useless.

I've put one together and done some testing on it, and it should suit the intended purpose very very nicely. :)

So with this setup, assuming you are going to market these bad boys, would cryo-ing be either pointless or out of the question?
 

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Discussion Starter · #192 ·
Good to hear. I figure the teeth are wearing while the motor is ran, then during cold start (especially higher compression set-ups) the catch is slipping on the worn teeth. This isn't noticed until total failure at higher RPM due to incorrect timing. Hopefully this solves both the wearing of the teeth and the initial compression of the piston at start up, while allowing enough give to keep the chain from stretching/snapping.
well, the ratchet has no real purpose during normal operation of the motor. It's primary purpose is to allow tensioner installation, and to prevent the piston from fully compressing on startup. Anyone with a "problem" setup is going to eat up the teeth on the ratchet regardless, but this design will save the motor from jumping teeth on startup and will not cause chain breakage that is associated with a solid mechanical stop.
 

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Discussion Starter · #193 ·
So with this setup, assuming you are going to market these bad boys, would cryo-ing be either pointless or out of the question?
IMO, cryo treating will have limited benefits in this application. in fact, you would want the ratchet to wear out versus stopping the tensioner cold b/c when the tensioner hits a hard stop, it limits the amount of shock the tensioner can absorb. You end up with a really high impulse tension, and that is what leads to chain breakage.

So, i would leave the ratchet untouched so if you have a problem setup, the ratchet teeth will wear out allowing the tensioner sufficient travel to handle the larger movements of the chain.

The final solution will be to have a tensioner that does not even need a ratchet. I have ideas for one, but it'll be awhile before I get that done. :p
 

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Discussion Starter · #194 ·
Also, if you have a PROBLEM SETUP and would like to help me collect some data, send me a PM and we cam talk about it further.

If your engine is not eating tensioners, just stick with what you have. I'm looking for some people that have setups that have experienced tensioner failure/chain breakage.

thanks. :)
 

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I like you're thinking Chunky. I am collecting pieces for an R type cam/spring set up in a k24a2. I like the reliability factor of upgraded failsafe parts before a problem occurs. With such a tame set up that I plan to run I am not a good candidate for testing you're prototype springs, but rather will be in touch when the springs will be offered to the general population. I also like the guys remark earlier on making a guide/guard that would shepherd the chain around the cam gears. If you are in school for anything less than a degree in mechanical engineering I would strongly urge you to quit school and apply yourself towards research and development. If you are aiming at a mechanical engineering degree I would strongly urge you towards making a fully hydraulic actuated tensioner as your thesis (oil has a better damping nature than steel and would nullify harmonic vibration). More time to study the task at hand as well as merits towards your education finalization. Maybe even some $$$.
 

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good luck with everything and keep us updated,

i will watch my tensioner like a hawk, like u said:cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #197 ·
I like you're thinking Chunky. I am collecting pieces for an R type cam/spring set up in a k24a2. I like the reliability factor of upgraded failsafe parts before a problem occurs. With such a tame set up that I plan to run I am not a good candidate for testing you're prototype springs, but rather will be in touch when the springs will be offered to the general population. I also like the guys remark earlier on making a guide/guard that would shepherd the chain around the cam gears. If you are in school for anything less than a degree in mechanical engineering I would strongly urge you to quit school and apply yourself towards research and development. If you are aiming at a mechanical engineering degree I would strongly urge you towards making a fully hydraulic actuated tensioner as your thesis (oil has a better damping nature than steel and would nullify harmonic vibration). More time to study the task at hand as well as merits towards your education finalization. Maybe even some $$$.
I'm an electrical eng at the moment. For graduate school (hopefully next fall) I'm most likely going to switch to MechE. Right now, my two areas of undergrad research are electromagnetics and control systems. In grad school, I'm either going to do vibration/harmonics or propulsion.

The goal is to do design work when i'm done with schooling. :)
 

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I'm an electrical eng at the moment. For graduate school (hopefully next fall) I'm most likely going to switch to MechE. Right now, my two areas of undergrad research are electromagnetics and control systems. In grad school, I'm either going to do vibration/harmonics or propulsion.

The goal is to do design work when i'm done with schooling. :)
That was my original goal when I started ME right out of high school, but I soon realized that here in south Louisiana if you're not going into the oil field you're just wasting your time in ME. So I got out and worked for a few years before going back to school for automotive tech and I've been working for the last 5 years at this, but I'm tired of the shit for pay, so I'm now back in school to finish my engineering degree, but this time as Civil. I figured I'd work on designing better roads or structures.
 

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Most all of the chain breakage issues I have seen, all seem to have excessively stretched chains. As the chain stretchs the piston is extending out of the tensioner and the internal spring cant apply enough tension during start-up and on-off the gas situations.

When I swapped over from a A2 head to the Z3 head I replaced the timing chain and all the guides with NIB. I put both chains up to each other and the old chain was appreciably longer.

A stronger spring and possiblly a SMALLER oil exit hole in the piston to maintain hydraulic damping would help
 
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