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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Discussion Starter #21
Rest in peace Joe McCarthy

Over 4 years now since Joe passed away.

Many of his parts, Joe developed for the K-series engine, inspired others to copy or for their own interpretation or development of a similar part. Especially the 4-2-1 exhaust manifold design was a basis for many hobby and semi professional racers and race engine builders.

He also inspired me. His data about the power difference of a stock RBC IM vs. the 8.5 IM where impressive and made me curious. After almost 4 years of that by Joe inspired development, where I spent more than 2500 h of sparetime with programming and validating of calculation tools, simulating and investigating hundreds of different engine setups and finally to design the engine setup and its parts for production, finishing line is viewable. I am really looking forward to the point of to see and to hear it running on the dyno. And of course I would be curious about Joe's verdict and to discuss it with him, as he was the guy getting my rock rolled and as it shows some different approaches.

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" (Charles Colton, 1820, out of "Lacon, or Many Things in Few Words, addressed to those who think")
 

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I think it was around 2013 and I posted a question about ITB sizing in regards to a stock k20a. He made a few comments on my post and then I received an email from him which I thought was strange. In the email he wanted to know if I wanted to be one of 20 (20 seems right but don't quote me) to purchase his new 8.5 manifold. From what I can remember he needed 20 people to make it worth the processes at whatever facility that was doing the castings. He sent pictures of a few of his designs which I wished would have saved. At the time I didn't really know what to think of his manifolds so I said thanks but no thanks. He was definitely loaded with knowledge and thought outside the box when it came to engines and engineering. It wasn't long after that he started posting some of his thoughts and designs of the 8.5 manifold and some others on the forum. It was interesting but of course it caused a few tiffs around here. I will dig through my old emails to see if I can find anything......
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Discussion Starter #27
Some of his quotes out of my collection of Joe's posts:

This one is inherently important to know if the cams are from aftermarket:
Joe McCarthy said:
If you had've gotten it into VTEC just a few times during that short drive you'd probably be OK now. The problem always occurs when the engine's not in VTEC for extended periods because that's when the oil pressure is extremely low. Let me just explain how it works, OK? Then you'll get the whole picture. The oil into the top end starts in the rocker shafts, so at a 30 psi idle the rockers are getting 3 psi and that's enough because we're talking about hardened steel on hardened steel. There are 12 holes in each rocker shaft, so as you can imagine there's a LOT of leakage before the oil actually makes it to the cams. The oil flow path to the cams enters them through two 1.5mm holes in the #2 saddle (one for each cam), and just like the rocker shafts they're hollow, so that's all the oil the cam bearings get until the engine hits VTEC. A whimpy 3 psi that's already been diminshed to some degree by the leakage at the rocker shafts. So what I do is divorce cam oiling completely from rocker oiling and VTEC actuation by plugging those two 1.5mm holes in the #2 saddle. If I didn't do that the engine would be in VTEC all the time. Then I feed oil to the cams through a -3 stainless hard-line from the same oil passage the pressue sender lives on and route it to the modified #5 saddle at full pressure and 3 times the original volume 100% of the time. VTEC still works like it always did and the cam bearings get all the lubrication they need no matter what's happening with VTEC.
I use a -3 stainless hard-line because that's what's correct for the job at hand. Using a -3 Teflon hose is fucking stupid IMO. Its cheap, sure, but Teflon melts pretty easily, and that's enough to make it the wrong choice.
The only modifications are to the #2 and #5 cam saddles, and given the way Honda oils the top end I'm really surprised we don't see more horror stories like this one.
The damage begins with the bearing caps once they see any metal to metal contact and then the friction welding starts happening. Worst case scenario is when it continues to the point of severe collateral damage like the pictures show.
B&D,
The K20 pump puts out SO much more volume than it needs to its in bypass mode all the time. With no bypass it'll make 164 psi at 1,600 RPM, I've tested it. So no worries about going from two 1.5mm holes to a -3 hardline with an I.D. of 1/8".
This is a nice quote about a 8.5 manifold vs. Kinsler ITB's on a 90x103 engine.
Joe McCharthy said:
Actually it was the 8.5 manifold that we tested back to back against Kinsler ITB's (and an IPS manifold) on that 2,621cc (90 x 103) motor. That was 3 years ago, so I hadn't even built the first 9.0 manifold yet at that point, but it was obvious I needed to so I did soon after that.
So when we got pretty close to 420 HP using the same 78mm T/B I'd been using on all the smaller motors I bought a 90mm T/B to test on that engine. Curious because the 90 didn't make any more power, so when I took the manifold off I noticed how huge the MCP ports were and there was the answer staring me in the face. The 8.5 manifold has stock Honda port sized intake runners (at the flange anyway), so we had a giant port mismatch situation. Then the guy who owned the engine took it away and we weren't able to continue testing, so we never got to see what the engine was really capable of doing.
Rob,
Its pretty easy to get the exact shape and relative location of the intake ports with nothing more than a piece of poster board, some tape, and an exacto knife. Just make certain the bolts and tape locate the poster board (basically thick paper) really accurately on the head before you start cutting the port holes out using the exacto knife. Then just send it to me and I'll duplicate that size and shape using my milling machine when I put the ports into the manifold. Then there's blending and polishing on the insides of the runners and then I can weld the plenum on.
I don't have a clue how its going to fit with your engine mounting setup. Whoever did that should have moved everything back some rather than just tilting it forward.
Now the question about what tuned RPM to make the runners should really be a question of proper gearing. The right way to set the car up is to gear it so you're at peak HP as you're going through the timimg trap or right at the finish line if you don't care about impressing anybody with your high trap speed.
Gearing the car wrong and just revving the shit out of the motor in high gear isn't necessarily the quickest way to get to the finish line.
Since you can't seem to get an accurate RPM signal on the dyno you use I suggest you fix that problem first. It makes the rest of it easier. Having data-logging helps but isn't absolutely necessary on the next step. You calculate your speed through the gears (or take that data from the logs) and draw a graph of that, and using your dyno chart you create a HP graph of your entire pass, or once its actually hooked up anyway. The shape of the HP curve will tell you exactly how much "motive power" you have at every point through the whole pass, and the idea is to maximize that so you're really looking for a gearing setup that'll give you the highest average HP through the whole 1/4 mile.
So the gearing should be predicated on what the engine's giving you to work with, make sense?
The final decision on what RPM you want the manifold to be tuned for is up to you since you're the customer and its your money. All I can do is offer suggestions.

Joes 8.5 vs ITB's.jpg
The last proves the runner ID's of the 8.5 IM are pretty big indeed. More to come from time to time.

Markus
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Discussion Starter #29
Lotus I looked back through my email history but couldn't find our conversations......sux
Thanks for your effort to search them :up:. Maybe you can sum up one story from your memory?!

Another quote from Joe I like much:
Joe McCarthy said:
...Notice on the dyno charts to how flat and high the torque curve is, deep into the rpm range. I'm actually manipulating the shape of the torque curve, and therefore the HP curve, with the intake manifold. This increases the volumetric efficiency of the engine, and it has no choice but to make more power. Engines are really just self-propelled airpumps, and I've made the airpump pump more air using finely tuned energy wave harmonics.
Its just like adding about 7 pounds of boost, except without the extra cost of buying a supercharger.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Discussion Starter #31
Yes, motox6. Post #14 shows one of the setups he used for the Hondata Bonneville engine, which was a 90x78.5 engine screemer. He led peak it at around 10.5 krpm...respectevily it gives a short runner length, which is still longer then most of the aftermarket IM stuff. I would love to share more about that engine, but I didn't found one. One of the Hondata guys would be able to do it.

Thanks for the link!
 

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I did not, but reading his words he sounds like a guy I would have argued with and learned from. Seems like he was complicated but frequently good of heart, and curious.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Discussion Starter #35
I did not, but reading his words he sounds like a guy I would have argued with and learned from...
Ah, ok. I also not know him personally, but out of his collected thoughts, he wrote down for the community on 4 different forums, one can get the impression of a well experienced and well educated engineer in the field of race engine stuff.

There are only few further guys of this format in the JDM world which I know. Larry from Endyne - one of the most innovative and experienced guy in gaseos flow and combustion process design, Reg Cook - a 9 times Bonneville record holder with decades of experience and knowhow in NA engine designing, building and testing. There are maybe more...just two examples, I know who are or were unique, with an mind of his own, well experienced, innovative and special in their field with great success and results.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Discussion Starter #38
Please contact K20a.org member katman or EG_6spd. Both can likely help you out. Surely one of the Hondata owners can, as they worked together for years and run a website in commemoration to Joe McCarthy. Sorry for the late replay, I am too busy to check in here every day.

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Please contact K20a.org member katman or EG_6spd. Both can likely help you out. Surely one of the Hondata owners can, as they worked together for years and run a website in commemoration to Joe McCarthy. Sorry for the late replay, I am too busy to check in here every day.







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No worries, I appreciate the response none the less.

Yea I wanted to propose a little something to their family and see if we can keep his legacy going. I will contact them and see what they say.


again, thank you for responding.
 

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Discover today that he passed away....sad and rest in peace.
Nevertheless....i'm still waiting from him what i paied for....only something like 12K$.....sad, very sad....

Nicolas
 
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