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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey Guys, I'm here to gather research and absorb the knowledge you guys have about the k20 and k24 because that's the choice I've made about what will power my 1984 Porsche 944. I am 20 years old and have a mechanical background. This car is my first project car and the most expensive perchance I've made and I want to make her special.

I need tons of help from simple engine models, and choices to engine management options, to the best cooling setup tips.
I look forward to working with anyone whos willing to help me.

Thank you
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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I need tons of help from simple engine models, and choices to engine management options, to the best cooling setup tips.
Welcome @K24-944 to K20a.org.

Your PM regarding the bolt pattern 2D drawing of the gearbox bell housing did reach me, but I am sorry I don't have it. Please try to reach out @Mixwell or @[email protected] (you may try this as Email), which may got the drawing from him, s. here: K series engine bolt pattern.

Regarding the cooling of a RWD-front radiator-rear engine we have some experience from the Lotus chassis here. There are some Lotus chassis owners with K-swapped power plants which run them on different applications. I myself calculate every design aspect of the power plant and designed a E-pump driven cooling circuit which has a Engine Coolant Temperature-closed loop control (PI-controller setup with a lot of pilot control maps) including a cascaded closed loop Oil Temperature-control, which works quite well. Even on the dyno the ECT was within +-2 °C as long as we kept the radiator withing its cooling capacity. It would help a lot if you would start a built thread where you detail the application and engine setup to give us a starting point and room for discussions.

Markus
 

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944 is front engined RWD. It should be a similar install to k20/K24 in an S2000.
He needs an intake manifold for RWD application with the TB on the right side of the intake manifold.
He also will need a suitable sump baffle for a RWD application .
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
944 is front engined RWD. It should be a similar install to k20/K24 in an S2000.
He needs an intake manifold for RWD application with the TB on the right side of the intake manifold.
He also will need a suitable sump baffle for a RWD application .
That's exactly why I decided the k24 platform is best for this build
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Welcome @K24-944 to K20a.org.

Your PM regarding the bolt pattern 2D drawing of the gearbox bell housing did reach me, but I am sorry I don't have it. Please try to reach out @Mixwell or @[email protected] (you may try this as Email), which may got the drawing from him, s. here: K series engine bolt pattern.

Regarding the cooling of a RWD-front radiator-rear engine we have some experience from the Lotus chassis here. There are some Lotus chassis owners with K-swapped power plants which run them on different applications. I myself calculate every design aspect of the power plant and designed a E-pump driven cooling circuit which has a Engine Coolant Temperature-closed loop control (PI-controller setup with a lot of pilot control maps) including a cascaded closed loop Oil Temperature-control, which works quite well. Even on the dyno the ECT was within +-2 °C as long as we kept the radiator withing its cooling capacity. It would help a lot if you would start a built thread where you detail the application and engine setup to give us a starting point and room for discussions.

Markus
Thank you so much for your response. I will make sure to email them and ask.

Also your cooling set up sounds very advanced, is there a specific purpose for each component that you choose.

Based on your swap I think your assistance would be critical in my success, thank you again for your help
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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What is the Hausfrauen-Porsche?
The 924 and the 944 Model was much critiqued by fans of the 911 concept, which was based on the VW Käfer (Beetle) with an air-cooled rear engine. Those two were not designed and developed at Porsche for their own purpose, it was designed for successor of the 914 Porsche which was a VW car. That lead to the fact that Porsche integrated many VW parts into that car, and of course the front engine and oh my Gosh water cooled...the Porsche'ianer (= lifetime fans of Porsche) was fully disrupted about that Porsche development already during the development, even knowing this was done on order of VW. The 1970'ies were hard times for all OEM's, VW wanted to get rid of the 924/44, thence Porsche bought their own development back and sold them on their brand: Porsche 924 and 944. But instead of a disaster it was the bestselling Porsche till 1976 or so, it was cheap enough, because of the many mass production parts of VW, for rich guys to buy their housewife's a 924 or 944. The German word for housewife is "Hausfrau" and of course the fact that women drove a Porsche was something man looked from up down that time, but on this frequency, it was enough surprising that a greater mass of people recognized it and called it from that on "Hausfrauen-Porsche", the Porsche typical driven by housewives.

In the 70'ies women were proud to drive a car, as till the 60'ies they need an allowance by their husbands to get a driver license (incl. schooling and test). Imagine now women even the most Testosterone flooded humans addicting car of Germans OEM's was now driven by housewife's...h o u s e w i f e ' s, yes you read correct ;). For that time this was something like the first women in a F1 car today...eeeeeeextraoooooordiiiiiinaaaaaary! That name they gave it, Hausfrauen-Porsche is still usual today, even I know it and I have almost no interest on their cars and flat engines since they produce cars everyone can drive. A today's 911 RWD kinematic is that complex in control that without ECU and electrical power those cars would run just sideways. Those are no longer sport cars which are Porsche's, cars you need bravery, force and will to handle that power on street. The 996 was the last of that area, especially the GT3 version with 4.0 Liter. Engine wise the GT3 engines are still impressing, like the GT3 engine MA176. Buuut, engine in such super controlled chassis are no beasts anymore, calmed poor beast on a huge huge chain. Nope, Porsche, all of them run by all type of rich guys, that is not what it made to what it is today. A buddy of mine is applicating and testing the new Porsche V8 since mid of the year, we exchanged no single word about it, we just talked about his Honda engine and stuff. Just today about the failing check valve of the low load blowby path.

On the length of my last's paragraph, you see how much disappointment is in the background regarding Porsche's historical development. I remember the sentence of Walter Röhrl, likely the best race car driver ever, commenting how it feels to drive the 935 called Moby Dick that this roughly 850 hp car was almost not driveable when boost increased rapidly. This was the most escalating 911 ever but it was one of the those 911's beside the GT3 versions I still remember from my childhood.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The 924 and the 944 Model was much critiqued by fans of the 911 concept, which was based on the VW Käfer (Beetle) with an air-cooled rear engine. Those two were not designed and developed at Porsche for their own purpose, it was designed for successor of the 914 Porsche which was a VW car. That lead to the fact that Porsche integrated many VW parts into that car, and of course the front engine and oh my Gosh water cooled...the Porsche'ianer (= lifetime fans of Porsche) was fully disrupted about that Porsche development already during the development, even knowing this was done on order of VW. The 1970'ies were hard times for all OEM's, VW wanted to get rid of the 924/44, thence Porsche bought their own development back and sold them on their brand: Porsche 924 and 944. But instead of a disaster it was the bestselling Porsche till 1976 or so, it was cheap enough, because of the many mass production parts of VW, for rich guys to buy their housewife's a 924 or 944. The German word for housewife is "Hausfrau" and of course the fact that women drove a Porsche was something man looked from up down that time, but on this frequency, it was enough surprising that a greater mass of people recognized it and called it from that on "Hausfrauen-Porsche", the Porsche typical driven by housewives.

In the 70'ies women were proud to drive a car, as till the 60'ies they need an allowance by their husbands to get a driver license (incl. schooling and test). Imagine now women even the most Testosterone flooded humans addicting car of Germans OEM's was now driven by housewife's...h o u s e w i f e ' s, yes you read correct ;). For that time this was something like the first women in a F1 car today...eeeeeeextraoooooordiiiiiinaaaaaary! That name they gave it, Hausfrauen-Porsche is still usual today, even I know it and I have almost no interest on their cars and flat engines since they produce cars everyone can drive. A today's 911 RWD kinematic is that complex in control that without ECU and electrical power those cars would run just sideways. Those are no longer sport cars which are Porsche's, cars you need bravery, force and will to handle that power on street. The 996 was the last of that area, especially the GT3 version with 4.0 Liter. Engine wise the GT3 engines are still impressing, like the GT3 engine MA176. Buuut, engine in such super controlled chassis are no beasts anymore, calmed poor beast on a huge huge chain. Nope, Porsche, all of them run by all type of rich guys, that is not what it made to what it is today. A buddy of mine is applicating and testing the new Porsche V8 since mid of the year, we exchanged no single word about it, we just talked about his Honda engine and stuff. Just today about the failing check valve of the low load blowby path.

On the length of my last's paragraph, you see how much disappointment is in the background regarding Porsche's historical development. I remember the sentence of Walter Röhrl, likely the best race car driver ever, commenting how it feels to drive the 935 called Moby Dick that this roughly 850 hp car was almost not driveable when boost increased rapidly. This was the most escalating 911 ever but it was one of the those 911's beside the GT3 versions I still remember from my childhood.
I had no idea , thanks for the little history lesson. Also I just broke my intake box and brake booster check value because of a rusty screw . I want to cry.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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I want to cry.
Welcome in the DIY land 😅.

Porsche has the most complicated engines, and it would be hard to build or modify a powerful engine made by Porsche.
Welcome to K20a.org @millenerjulius.

From what standpoint do you see that? From a technology standpoint e.g. the 4.0 liter MA1.75 B6 engine has similar technologies then the K-series engine:
  • VVT variable valve timing (continuous)
  • VVL variable valve lift (two way)
  • fixed intake runner and plenum
  • fixed header to CAT
  • fixed CR and crankdrive
  • direct injection (exception here)
  • roof chamber head
Nothing specifically complicated from a standpoint of control, actuation, and thermodynamics. I would even say from a standpoint of efficiency the actual MA1.76 is not much better then the F20C1 of Honda was it in the late 90'ies already and the K20A in the early 00's. The effort Porsche must take to get to 125 hp/liter and 110 Nm/liter is pretty high. The effort to get into 150 hp/liter and 130 Nm/liter with an K-series engine is doable, I see potential for 180 hp/liter and achieved already 142 Nm/liter.

From a mechanical standpoint, the MA1.76/MDG engine is filigrane in some details like the tappet construction, but where it is complex, I can't see. Where do you see that?
 
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