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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Who makes a baffled oil pan for the K20?
 

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Dc5itracer said:
Hytech exhaust sells just the baffles to go into the stock oil pan.Look it up on clubrsx store thats where i saw it.
yeah it's like 250. not bad for a baffled oil pan.
 

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98specR said:
yeah it's like 250. not bad for a baffled oil pan.
You just have to install the baffler yourself?
 

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heres the hytech:

bolt-in?

also, is there anyone that has a oil pan in the works that has a increased capacity and baffles?
 

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K2e2vin said:
also, is there anyone that has a oil pan in the works that has a increased capacity and baffles?
Don't know- but I do have a lunched bottom end despite fitting a baffled sump.

Vid here - right click save as: CLICKY Haven't cracked her open yet. Damage probably took place over a number of track days. Since this was only my second lap of the day and I was only on road tyres. The baffled sump may not have had sufficient capacity to cope with the high speed, high G very long corners that you find at Spa - a track I've visited many times over the past year.
 

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Ian,
You're making some rather uninformed assumptions here. That same trap-door baffle box I made for you has been used here by just about everyone racing in Honda Challenge and Honda Cup, as well as quite a few others, and to date not one of those racing engines has suffered from any oil starvation problems. I've watched your video, and obviously Spa has no turns even remotely approaching turns 8 & 9 at Willow Springs or even worse the Oval at Fontana. Once you've had an expert engine builder do a proper post mortem on your engine, at that point you may be able to tell what the cause of the failure really was.
 

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Joe McCarthy said:
Ian,
You're making some rather uninformed assumptions here. That same trap-door baffle box I made for you has been used here by just about everyone racing in Honda Challenge and Honda Cup, as well as quite a few others, and to date not one of those racing engines has suffered from any oil starvation problems. I've watched your video, and obviously Spa has no turns even remotely approaching turns 8 & 9 at Willow Springs or even worse the Oval at Fontana. Once you've had an expert engine builder do a proper post mortem on your engine, at that point you may be able to tell what the cause of the failure really was.
Joe, I don't think I've made any uninformed assumptions. I *have* speculated on possible causes. The baffle box is not being used in a front engined car, the CoG, roll centre, tyres are all different. Spa does have several very long high speed corners. Pouhon in particular is around 10 or 11 secs. You enter it after coming down a hill and braking (so the oil is at the front of the sump). On this particular day I was still on road tyres and was only on my 4th lap of the day. But I have done Spa 5 times in the past year on Yoko 48's. It's possible the damage has accumulated over a period of time. The oil level was on max and is *always* checked before going out.

Everyone who has seen the video says big end bearing failure. The most likely cause given the mileage on the engine (approx 25K), the high quality oil used (Motul fully synthetic), the way the engine has been looked after (never caned till the oil is up to temperature) - is a lack of oil reaching the bearing/s. I'd be interested in hearing your opinion on other likely causes - obviously it will be speculation but that's fine.

Although the car doesn't run slicks this can be a disadvantage since it will take longer to get through a corner while still producing significant lateral loads. My concern with the baffle box is based on the following:

1. As a box design oil can flow around it missing the oil pickup altogether.
2. If the car is developing 1G cornering then oil returning to the sump will be on a 45 degree angle and because the top of the box is closed very little of that will be going into the baffle box, and obviously very little will be going to the side where it can flow into the baffle box.
3. If the oil pump is flowing 15L - 20L per minute its drawing a litre approx. every 3 seconds, so for an 11 second high G corner nearly 4 litre's will be needed. Prior to the corner the oil will be spread evenly across the sump. With approx 1L in the baffle box and the balance to the left and right. The baffle box will not capture all the oil (since some will flow around it) and there will not be a great deal entering the top of baffle box due to closed nature of the design. So the potential is there for the pickup to run dry.

Once we've cracked it open I'll provide photos of what we find. My main concern is to avoid a similar failure in the future. If the baffle box is not related to the failure I will post accordingly.


Picture of the baffle box for those wondering.

 

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Ian,
I'm not going to waste my time arguing semantics with you, your "speculation" is an assumption until you've taken the engine apart, and even then you still may not be able to determine exactly what the root cause of the failure was. The fact that you continued driving the car under power after you noticed there was a problem cetainly won't help any in this regard, because you yourself continued to destroy your engine by not shutting it off immediately. I can tell you for certain from 40+ years of engine building experience that if you had an inherent oil supply problem it would've shown its ugly head right off the bat, not after running this circuit 5 times already. At 8,000+ RPM a bearing seizure happens in a fraction of a second, it doesn't accumulate over a long period of time.
Even though the K20A is a great little engine, it does have it's shortcomings. First and foremost is the width of the rod bearings, which at only .605" [15.37mm] is marginal and 26% narrower than the F and H-series bearings. Honda went a little overboard in trying to reduce internal friction in this case, and this is the reason all the engines I'm building will have the wider F20C bearings in them. Second is the route they've taken in oiling the cams, which I've already solved.
The design of the baffle box is sound, and it's been tested repeatedly in sustained 1.4+ G loading without any problem. No matter which direction the oil flows there's at least one swinging door that either opens or closes to allow the oil into the box or keep it from getting out.
In a perfect world we'd all be running dry-sump oiling systems, unfortunately most people's budgets don't allow that so we do what we can with the wet-sump.
 

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There is one thing I would like to mention. Ian, you said that the oil was always filled to the full mark. If you ask around, you will find that just about every nationally competitive autocrosser in the states overfills their oil, sometimes by quite a bit. A whole lot of these guys do that because they blew up a previous motor due to oil starvation from only filling to the full line. Just FYI. :)
 

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nikos said:
Joe, welcome to the site. Can you please tell us more about the cam oiling issue?
that and maybe the rod bearing issue maybe(any motors with spun rods, etc.)?
 

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Nikos,
With stock Honda cams there appears to be no problem supplying only about 10% of the available oil pressure to the cam journals during non-VTEC operation. This is a function of oiling the cams through the VTEC valving, and just the way Honda decided to do it. However, we've seen some manufacturer's cams literally wipe out the bearing caps, the lobes, and the rollers in fairly short order due to agressive ramp rates and excessive spring pressure. Once again, this is due to Honda trying to reduce the parasitic losses of internal friction with narrow bearings, and while these very narrow bearing journals work just fine when using stock Honda cams, unless the entire valve-train is taken into account during the design phase of any aftermarket cams and springs you're liable to be in trouble in fairly short order. The cams don't get much oiling to begin with, they're fed by two tiny holes in the #2 bearing saddle.
What I've done is to separate these two oiling systems in the interest of longevity, providing full pressure, full-time oiling to the cams, leaving the VTEC oiling as it was to begin with. It requires some very precise machining of expensive to replace parts, so it's not something I'd advise anyone to try on their own.
Rochesterricer,
Over-filling the oil sump is a sometimes effective, cheap, and rather Mickey Mouse way of trying to combat oil starvation. These guys would be far better off running a baffled pan, since overfilling the thing by more than 1/2 quart will definitely cost them some HP. The crankshaft and rods flailing about in a sea of oil generates not only a Million air bubbles for the pump to circulate through the engine, but a serious amount of resistance to free rotation. This is the reason Honda includes a "windage tray" below the rotating assembly, and there's not much space between it and the oil.
Joe
 

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Joe McCarthy said:
Ian,
I'm not going to waste my time arguing semantics with you, your "speculation" is an assumption until you've taken the engine apart, and even then you still may not be able to determine exactly what the root cause of the failure was. The fact that you continued driving the car under power after you noticed there was a problem cetainly won't help any in this regard, because you yourself continued to destroy your engine by not shutting it off immediately. I can tell you for certain from 40+ years of engine building experience that if you had an inherent oil supply problem it would've shown its ugly head right off the bat, not after running this circuit 5 times already. At 8,000+ RPM a bearing seizure happens in a fraction of a second, it doesn't accumulate over a long period of time.
Even though the K20A is a great little engine, it does have it's shortcomings. First and foremost is the width of the rod bearings, which at only .605" [15.37mm] is marginal and 26% narrower than the F and H-series bearings. Honda went a little overboard in trying to reduce internal friction in this case, and this is the reason all the engines I'm building will have the wider F20C bearings in them. Second is the route they've taken in oiling the cams, which I've already solved.
The design of the baffle box is sound, and it's been tested repeatedly in sustained 1.4+ G loading without any problem. No matter which direction the oil flows there's at least one swinging door that either opens or closes to allow the oil into the box or keep it from getting out.
In a perfect world we'd all be running dry-sump oiling systems, unfortunately most people's budgets don't allow that so we do what we can with the wet-sump.
The fact is damage occurred and lifting sooner would not have *prevented* it from occurring. If oil starvation was the cause then the colour of the bearing/s should tell the tale. In which case I would imagine the possible causes to be the oil pump, a blockage or starvation of the pickup all of which can be eliminated. Are you maintaining that there are no circumstances under which a bearing can suffer accelerated wear leading to a sudden terminal failure?

You still haven't addressed any of my questions regarding the design of the baffle box. Why is the top of the box closed? Not all the oil will flow through the hinged section some will flow around the outside of the box. My calculations show that it is possible to run dry given the right circumstances. I can understand your desire as the designer of the baffle box to remove it from the list of possible causes. But I remember how adamant you have been in the past about your designs not being the cause of problems... I'm not going to post them up here in the interest of attempting to maintain some sort of civility on this thread.
 

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hey joe! its roy from hawaii.. still gotta get those velocity stacks from yah.. haha :)
 

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Ian,
One of the extremely important reasons to shut an engine down at the earliest possible moment after you notice there's a problem is so you can isolate that problem during the post mortem. The more times the engine revolves after that simply generates more and more damage, which makes determining the root cause increasingly difficult. It's simply good science. Another excellent reason is that many times you're likely to have a gaping hole in the block, and the escaping oil often times catches on fire as it bathes the red-hot exhaust system. This one is just good common sense.
From the sound of it in your video if it wasn't a dropped valve, then you'll be very lucky to find any bearing at all [of any color] since they come from Honda in a variety of colors. Honda runs extremely tight bearing clearances in their production engines, so I'm glad to see you followed my 2nd-choice advice and used Motul oil.
Since I'm taking you to school again I'll explain the baffle box by asking you a question so you can think of the answer.
#1. If the top of the box was completely open, could it hold any oil as the oil tried to flow away? Hint: We're trying to hold the oil near the very bottom of the sump where the pump pickup is, right?
Joe
 

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Joe McCarthy said:
Nikos,
With stock Honda cams there appears to be no problem supplying only about 10% of the available oil pressure to the cam journals during non-VTEC operation. This is a function of oiling the cams through the VTEC valving, and just the way Honda decided to do it. However, we've seen some manufacturer's cams literally wipe out the bearing caps, the lobes, and the rollers in fairly short order due to agressive ramp rates and excessive spring pressure. Once again, this is due to Honda trying to reduce the parasitic losses of internal friction with narrow bearings, and while these very narrow bearing journals work just fine when using stock Honda cams, unless the entire valve-train is taken into account during the design phase of any aftermarket cams and springs you're liable to be in trouble in fairly short order. The cams don't get much oiling to begin with, they're fed by two tiny holes in the #2 bearing saddle.
What I've done is to separate these two oiling systems in the interest of longevity, providing full pressure, full-time oiling to the cams, leaving the VTEC oiling as it was to begin with. It requires some very precise machining of expensive to replace parts, so it's not something I'd advise anyone to try on their own.
Do you have any pics? :up:
 
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