Who makes a baffled oil pan for the K20?
Don't know- but I do have a lunched bottom end despite fitting a baffled sump.K2e2vin said:also, is there anyone that has a oil pan in the works that has a increased capacity and baffles?
Joe, I don't think I've made any uninformed assumptions. I *have* speculated on possible causes. The baffle box is not being used in a front engined car, the CoG, roll centre, tyres are all different. Spa does have several very long high speed corners. Pouhon in particular is around 10 or 11 secs. You enter it after coming down a hill and braking (so the oil is at the front of the sump). On this particular day I was still on road tyres and was only on my 4th lap of the day. But I have done Spa 5 times in the past year on Yoko 48's. It's possible the damage has accumulated over a period of time. The oil level was on max and is *always* checked before going out.Joe McCarthy said:Ian,
You're making some rather uninformed assumptions here. That same trap-door baffle box I made for you has been used here by just about everyone racing in Honda Challenge and Honda Cup, as well as quite a few others, and to date not one of those racing engines has suffered from any oil starvation problems. I've watched your video, and obviously Spa has no turns even remotely approaching turns 8 & 9 at Willow Springs or even worse the Oval at Fontana. Once you've had an expert engine builder do a proper post mortem on your engine, at that point you may be able to tell what the cause of the failure really was.
The fact is damage occurred and lifting sooner would not have *prevented* it from occurring. If oil starvation was the cause then the colour of the bearing/s should tell the tale. In which case I would imagine the possible causes to be the oil pump, a blockage or starvation of the pickup all of which can be eliminated. Are you maintaining that there are no circumstances under which a bearing can suffer accelerated wear leading to a sudden terminal failure?Joe McCarthy said:Ian,
I'm not going to waste my time arguing semantics with you, your "speculation" is an assumption until you've taken the engine apart, and even then you still may not be able to determine exactly what the root cause of the failure was. The fact that you continued driving the car under power after you noticed there was a problem cetainly won't help any in this regard, because you yourself continued to destroy your engine by not shutting it off immediately. I can tell you for certain from 40+ years of engine building experience that if you had an inherent oil supply problem it would've shown its ugly head right off the bat, not after running this circuit 5 times already. At 8,000+ RPM a bearing seizure happens in a fraction of a second, it doesn't accumulate over a long period of time.
Even though the K20A is a great little engine, it does have it's shortcomings. First and foremost is the width of the rod bearings, which at only .605" [15.37mm] is marginal and 26% narrower than the F and H-series bearings. Honda went a little overboard in trying to reduce internal friction in this case, and this is the reason all the engines I'm building will have the wider F20C bearings in them. Second is the route they've taken in oiling the cams, which I've already solved.
The design of the baffle box is sound, and it's been tested repeatedly in sustained 1.4+ G loading without any problem. No matter which direction the oil flows there's at least one swinging door that either opens or closes to allow the oil into the box or keep it from getting out.
In a perfect world we'd all be running dry-sump oiling systems, unfortunately most people's budgets don't allow that so we do what we can with the wet-sump.
Do you have any pics? :up:Joe McCarthy said:Nikos,
With stock Honda cams there appears to be no problem supplying only about 10% of the available oil pressure to the cam journals during non-VTEC operation. This is a function of oiling the cams through the VTEC valving, and just the way Honda decided to do it. However, we've seen some manufacturer's cams literally wipe out the bearing caps, the lobes, and the rollers in fairly short order due to agressive ramp rates and excessive spring pressure. Once again, this is due to Honda trying to reduce the parasitic losses of internal friction with narrow bearings, and while these very narrow bearing journals work just fine when using stock Honda cams, unless the entire valve-train is taken into account during the design phase of any aftermarket cams and springs you're liable to be in trouble in fairly short order. The cams don't get much oiling to begin with, they're fed by two tiny holes in the #2 bearing saddle.
What I've done is to separate these two oiling systems in the interest of longevity, providing full pressure, full-time oiling to the cams, leaving the VTEC oiling as it was to begin with. It requires some very precise machining of expensive to replace parts, so it's not something I'd advise anyone to try on their own.