[AWH]

Kelford 179-B's tuning issue

Edit=> I eventually got a passable idle. Not great, but decent. Lots of overlap on the low cams means low vacuum and idle in different KPro column that the stock one. So you have to really work the tables to get it right.
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New motor is in and running...sorta.

Idle is awful. Versus the 06 TSX cams, I had to pull 30% fuel out of the low cam maps at lower rpm and kPa just to keep it sort of happy. And it idles at around the 50 kPa range, not the normal 25-30. Very lumpy. Doesn’t get to 25-30 until you raise idle to at least 2000.

I pulled the valve cover and checked the cam timing, and it is all installed correctly.

Sounds exactly like the problems folks were having with 179-A’s (mine are 179-B’s), as discussed here: http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/cams-internals/285575-kelford-cams-thank-you.html and here: http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=101776

Anybody know if 179-B’s ever had this problem? Mine were purchased in August of last year.

The timing of this totally sucks as I have the big race week (One Lap of America) in two weeks and don’t have time to be messing with this.

Suggestions? My options appear to be:

1) Reinstall TSX cams for now, leaving new motor in the car
2) Pull motor out and swap back the completely stock TSX spare motor
3) Buy and install some other cams (I have the Kelford beehive springs & kit)

For reference, the build is: 03 Accord block, TSX crank, Carillo rods, 09 TSX pistons, 4 Piston ported K20A2 head, 50 VTC, Kelford 179-B & springs, RRC w/70, Hytech, CAI, 3"

PS: I'll also be pursuing this through the retailer from which the cams were purchased.

 

[Vaikis_]

seems your cams from bad batch.... BTW what P2V clearances you got with these 179-B cams and 09 TSX pistons ?
option 3 if you can get new cams fast.

 

[AWH]

seems your cams from bad batch.... BTW what P2V clearances you got with these 179-B cams and 09 TSX pistons ?
option 3 if you can get new cams fast.

.060 at 30 on the high cam.

 

[AWH]

Mucked around with the tune a bunch today and got a passable idle. Street tuned the fuel maps to get them close. Next stop is the dyno to clean it all up and see if these cams make power.

 

[chad]

Mucked around with the tune a bunch today and got a passable idle. Street tuned the fuel maps to get them close. Next stop is the dyno to clean it all up and see if these cams make power.

keep us updated

 

[vdubkilla]

I have these cams in my turbo car and they have been great idle is like stock and they have performed very well at over 500 whp running an oem chain tensioner as well with no issues .

 

[Vaikis_]

.060 at 30 on the high cam.

you should have a better clearancies with these and TSX 09 pistons - my thoughts that centerlines will be off.....and you won't make much power....

 

[MattEngels]

did you adjust your valves? litterally just had this issue myself and never adjusted the valves to what my cam card said it was a simple over look its the first set of big aftermarket cams ive had. Either way I had the same issue adjusted valves and it idles and drives near stock needs a lil fine tuning but its almost there.

 

[6spd_EK]

you should have a better clearancies with these and TSX 09 pistons - my thoughts that centerlines will be off.....and you won't make much power....

I believe the oem '09 piston intake valve reliefs are .190-.200 The kelford B is over 13.5 lift at the valve IIRC. what should his clearances be?

For an event like One Lap - personally, I would use oem cams or a much smaller cam for reliability/longevity to help insure you finish the event.

How much clearance did you have the exhaust side?

what rpm is your target idle set at? 1200 or so?

 

[Vaikis_]

I believe the oem '09 piston intake valve reliefs are .190-.200 The kelford B is over 13.5 lift at the valve IIRC. what should his clearances be?

For an event like One Lap - personally, I would use oem cams or a much smaller cam for reliability/longevity to help insure you finish the event.

How much clearance did you have the exhaust side?

what rpm is your target idle set at? 1200 or so?

not 13.30 lift ? good 179-B set should idle like OEM cams.....

 

[6spd_EK]

not 13.30 lift ?

maybe using an imaginary rocker ratio of 1.70:1 ...also its not so much lift that determines clearances but a combination of duration & lift overtime

& sorry I was thinking of the 179-b2's needing the higher rpm idle. do both the cam pulse plates & cam gears line up at TDC?

 

[Vaikis_]

maybe using an imaginary rocker ratio of 1.70:1 ...also its not so much lift that determines clearances but a combination of duration & lift overtime

& sorry I was thinking of the 179-b2's needing the higher rpm idle. do both the cam pulse plates & cam gears line up at TDC?

I know that, was posting numbers from keldford www site
Anyway with 04-05 TSX pistons there is no problems to go 30 degrees with 179-B cams. TSX 09+ should allow a little bit more.

 

[Lambo123]

To chime in, i got a set of Kelford A's that came from a bad batch. Timing was perfect, everything was torqued correctly, we did like 5 valve adjustments to the point where it really wouldn't have mattered...the car should've started anyway. Sent the cams back to Kelford, they gave me a new set which i sold to another member and he made great power with the new cams. A few others too on another forum had the same issue with Kelfords. Not saying that yours are bad but don't rule it out. I'd say call Kelford but i couldn't get a hold of them because they're customer service sucks.

 

[AWH]

To answer a couple of questions...

Yes, everything lined up, including the holes in the pulse plates.

I did get ahold of Kevin at Kelford via email and he encouraged me to just work on the tune -- that the extra overlap of the large primary lobes was killing the vacuum and that was normal. So I did and I got it idling passably.

Went to the dyno today and made decent power. 15 hp more across the board than my last motor, which was an 08 TSX with 12.5:1 pistons & rods.

I won't bore you with the absolute #'s since it was on a Dyno Dynamics running in shoot-out mode, which is great for consistent tuning, but shows crazy low numbers. I'll take it to a Dynojet at some point just to get something to talk about.

For now, I am fine with what I have. I've got the low cam working nicely for driving around, other than the idle. And the work on the dyno got the WOT up to par. With low vacuum, the IACV doesn't work all that well. I might just have to change adjust the idle stop to open the plate a little.

Oh yeah...low cam wants tons of advance at WOT...I have it at 40 but don't want to push my luck any more. And the high cam would probably also make a bit more with more advance, but not willing to risk it.

The really good news is that this motor shows no signs of knock anywhere on 93 pump gas, whereas the 12.5: 1 motor (with stock TSX cams) eventually ate itself because of it (cracked piston skirts).

 

[SickSilver_ep3]

the motor should idle like stock..

 

[Vaikis_]

any updates ?

 

[AWH]

Came across this thread of mine.

Update: I eventually got a passable idle. Not like stock, but useable.

 

[flesh199]

thx for you update AWH:new_slayer:

I run a set of cam and i wanted to know why my idle is lopey!