[EF8GripRacer]

Just to let you all know, im all about K-Series, and i plan on swapping in a K20a3 Si motor, when my bro gets his K20a, But i have a friend thats all about B-Series, i think we were all here at one point or another, after all change is a big thing, well i was wanting to take a poll, on who Knows, or thinks that a B18C or B18C5 is faster then the infamous "LS/Vtec" look i know that if you have a ls five speed with a vtec head, it would never stand a chance against an Integra Type R, So if you have dyno chart's, time slips, or heck, even your own opinion it would be greatly appreciated
Thanx

 

[909edge]

My opinion - you're comparing apples to oranges. Since an LS/VTEC basically sucks if you use stock LS pistons and just slap on a VTEC head, and also because LS trannies suck. So a basic LS/VTEC like that has no chance against a stock B18C5.

If you're talking about ultimate build points (i.e. fully built motor threw the checkbook at it) then I think the potential is about the same. If you look at the Import Tuner B series shootout you will notice most people ran LS-stroke cranks rather than the shorter-stroke GSR/Type R crank. When you sleeve the block you lose the oil squirters (which the type r has and LS doesn't) so at that point the blocks are pretty much equal. I think most people start a motor build like that with an LS block just because they are way cheaper.

As far as cylinder heads I personally believe that the GSR is superior to the B16/Type R. But the stock GSR intake manifold sucks.

 

[SeaN]

Do you have reasoning, behind thinking the gsr head is supior?, Jus asking out of curiosty and would like to know your facts to back it up.

Thanks

 

[iwannak20a]

yeah i why do u think gsr is superior. well my build consited or a b20 with a gsr head in a eg. and my friend had a pretty build b18c5 and i always beated him and when i had the whole gsr motor he always killed me

 

[RC000E]

I think the only thing that can be thought as superior are the non recessed quench. Other than that, the stock b16 head is the head to work with and build period, quench can be added.

 

[909edge]

I dunno look at some of the ports on a PR3 they aren't all perfectly straight thru. Also it seems like the combustion chamber design of the GSR head is better. But I am by no means an expert thats why I said in my opinion since thats all it is, an opinion. I don't have hard facts and dynos to back it up. But really compare the ports and tell me what you think. One port on the PR3 makes a weird turn.

I have heard that when both heads are ported to the max the GSR will have more/better flow?? Not sure on this one though...

 

[TeamPacman]

with the ITR head (coded as a PR3 head like the b16a and b17a and is just a b16a head that has been ported by Honda), you would have a different flowing head (60% less drag than the b18c1 head) with a higher head volume.

The ITR head volume is 42.7 cc compared to the GSR head at 41.6 cc...

If you have GSR pistons,.. this larger head volume would lower your static CR to 9.6:1....

The ITR head uses a single stage intake manifold (IM) and the intake port is a larger with steeper valve angles. It has less aerodynamic drag from having less internal surface area than the GSR head and GSR 2 stage IM. Therefore the flow quality is much better on the ITR. The intake port angle of approach into the combustion chamber is less vertical (you'll hear people say : less of a "straight shot" into the chamber than the GSR head). The GSR head's ports are said to be "straight shot" or more vertical or steeper). The ITR head will make more top end power at the sacrifice of some midrange, since it has these characteristics compared to the GSR head attached to the GSR 2 stage IM.
This changes, however, when you add a single stage IM and bigger cams however on the GSR head...


Lower head volume in the GSR head....finds that it works well with dished pistons in FI applications whereas the ITR head's larger head volume works well in N/A high hp motors using domed pistons that fill in the volume. :wink:



Ok... Here is a stock (unported) Civic b16a head (so it's not really an ITR head but you get the idea) compared to the GSR b18c1 head on a flowbench which only measures flow quantity and does not account for flow quality:

Notice that the unported b16a (PR3) head is the same in terms of flow volume compared to the unported b18c1 (P72) head...and it's not as dramatically better as people make it out to be. However the ITR head (a ported b16a head with "intake port bowl-blending" and modified valve angles) compared to a ported GSR head shows it's advantage at the upper rpms.

of course, you can have the GSR head ported & polished to flow better than an ITR head and use the Skunk2 single stage IM made to fit onto the GSR head to get the same effect of having less surface area and flow drag leading to better flow quality and more power at the upper rpms.

The ITR and GSR have the same identical rod ratio and so the port sizing for headporting would be similar. They both like long duration cams for N/A packages for the same reason....




PR3 : 89-91 JDM B16A EF8/9, 96-00 OBD-2 Integra Type-R (JDM ,Euro, Asian, USDM)


PR3 - J00 or J51 : 92 JDM Integra B16A EF8/9


an ITR head is a ported B16A head from the factory. So they are the same head but the ITR one has had better intake valves, stiffer springs, bigger cams, bigger LMD's, bigger ports, steeper valve angles, some bowl blending work done from the factory.




Ways to identify an ITR/CTR head

* the green paint by the distributor
* thinner ITR intake valve
* minor port work by the valve seat in the ports
* dual valve springs on both sides, notice yellow paint on intake side, blue on exhaust side
* lost motion assembly has a blue dot

 

[crx2point0]

:wow: Knowledge dropped.

 

[lsvtecturboteg]

but any of u guys have notice on how many drag car's well some of them have ls/vtec instead of b18c1 gsr or type R?

 

[eviltek775]

ls/vtec and b20/vtec suck they're a waste of time either build a straight bseires motor or go k20 i'm building a bseries right now and evilxkid is bulidng a k20 right now we'll let everone know who's faster when we're both done

 

[11sec CR-X]

What makes you think LS/VTEC B20VTEC suck did you ever run a built one??
just asking...

 

[B20VTECHUSTLER]

i think teams go with the ls bottom cause there easier to come by and not stunn your wallet when it takes a shit

 

[98specR]

i think teams go with the ls bottom cause there easier to come by and not stunn your wallet when it takes a shit

this true. it's either spend 800 on a gsr block or 100 on a ls.

 

[lsvtecturboteg]

CHEAP thats all i gotta say about doing lsvtec

 

[Professor15]

ls/vtec and b20/vtec suck they're a waste of time either build a straight bseires motor or go k20 i'm building a bseries right now and evilxkid is bulidng a k20 right now we'll let everone know who's faster when we're both done

Ls/vtec and b20/vtecs do not suck, period. You can build a fairly cheap ls/vtec or b20/vtec and have it make good power. If Price wasnt a issue, the Type R will win hands down as the better motor...but for a person on a budget, a b20vtec or Ls/vtec is your best bet...

 

[HmongNation]

in the honda tuning mag...they say that the b16a head has more room to bore out then a b18c.....the mag number is november 2004.....and plus i have friends that have all sorts of setups with ls/vtec, b20/gsr, basically everything you can think of and the fastest one that I do hear of is the ls/vtec........proof i just don't know how to post up vidoes....

 

[CrackedUpRacing]

ls/vtec and b20/vtec suck they're a waste of time either build a straight bseires motor or go k20 i'm building a bseries right now and evilxkid is bulidng a k20 right now we'll let everone know who's faster when we're both done

dude how can you say that? I live in colorado and have A b20vtec WITH A b16 head and my car far from sucks, I beat the hell out of most the cars out here. sure I spent Alot of money building it but after all the work it is one of the most fun cars I have ever driven. Is not the whole point of all this anyway to have fun and try new stuff? Whats so fun about putting A stock motor honda built in your car? when you can build something completely different.

 

[98specR]

Ls/vtec and b20/vtecs do not suck, period. You can build a fairly cheap ls/vtec or b20/vtec and have it make good power. If Price wasnt a issue, the Type R will win hands down as the better motor...but for a person on a budget, a b20vtec or Ls/vtec is your best bet...

sure they are cheep if you build them all mickey mouse like. anyone can just slap a vtec head on a non-vtec block. when built right ls/vtecs and b20vtecs are freakin fast and reliable. most of the top drivers running in honda challange of nasa use them. andy hope is a good example. he has been winning races for along time and he runs a ls/vtec in his crx. beating out fully built type r motors.
either way k series is best. :up:

 

[MilanoRedDragon]

it just depends on what you what. If you want a nice vtec motor that is maintains the honda reliability and makes good power, i would get a B18C1 or a C5, however if you just want to build a motor to make as much power as possible and your going to sleeve the block and what not, you mine as well just go the LS route with the VTEC head ect. my friend has built many ls/vtec combos that make lots of power, on average 240whp. When I had my last CRX i had a B17A1, and it was great. It wasn't the fastest car around, but it was really fun to drive and it just wanted to go through all the gears. But like i said it all depends on what you want.