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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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What does a single wheel rim (χείλος) weigh? I need it to calculate a first order approximation for the angular momentum of the drivetrain and the rest of the rotating parts... (Χρειάζεται να υπολογίσει μια προσέγγιση πρώτης τάξης για τη γωνιακή ορμή, if Google translator is correct :wink:)
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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oz alleggerita 7...X 17 et 45...6.8kg wheel weight
Thanks K20actr.J.

I saw your pictures all are lost in the Photobucket.com Nirvana. Could you please send me your last dyno curve to my email or just post it here?
 

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Discussion Starter · #207 · (Edited)
I am looking forward to any updates on your K22 endevours. Very yery interesting stuff a bit off the well trotten K24 path so popular in the USA. Admittedly for a reason.
I am only a few weeks away from firing up my 2.2 ZRP stroker (87x93). Engine is in, gear shift mechanism installed and adjusted. Piping is next.

If you do not have the space and you do not want to cut/chop parts of your car off, you have little choice. For these applications where a PRB is all that fits, a PRC is a good alternative. A Rover engined Lotus Elise would be such an example. With some of the engine mounts out there, a RBC or RRC MIGHT just fit with the insulation layer of the firewall scrapped off, but normally, it won't.
This is why me and others at some point relocated the firewall a few cm towards the cabin to gain that much needed space for better intake manifold designs.

The PRCs can be bought for little money, so might be worth a try.
Although if you want to do it right from the beginning, figure out if you can provide the space for the more modern intake manifolds, be it OEM designs like RBC,RRC or whatever aftermarket part you are interested in.
Back from death. hahaha
I have no any update.
This period i try to find more infos about lubricant technology ,the blond of engine.
and litle try to drop more the weight of ep3.
(First time installed daily drive oil type motul x sees 5w40 and 0w30 x lite.
0 oil consumption 9.000km.
I think my engine is healthy yet.)
Always with a/c,airbag and abs in my dailey drive,no any health risk

About prc and prb i have no now my dyno plot to figure the minimal benefits.

Full 1st stage my ep3 k20a2 stock block-head:
257 hp engine with rrc-rbc
240 hp engine with prc
236 hp engine with prb.



Oh zrp stroker!!
Dpakos engineering one of big names here Greece machine shop.

Gives low meddle and high cr for any setup.
Zrp what bearings use on the crank and rod?
Width of crank bearings is important.

k22 :)
86.5 x 93 = 2186cc
Clear K22
87.0 x 93= 2211cc
Clear k23
89.0 x 93= 2314 cc

The only think is the low rev limiter because piston speed,low r/r ratio.

How caress of course if engine is only race :)

Give us infos, about this project mark
 

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I'll open up a separate thread at some point. I don't want to fill up your informative thread with information of my build too much.
But as you ask:

I only bough the crank and rods of ZRP as they did not offer 87mm pistons.
Who would build a stroker in used block and not rebore&hone?
Initially I wanted to get Mahle Motorsport pistons for the K24 with 4cc dome volume, but no vendor I found that advertised them was able to get them. i now know who the German distributor is, so next time, I'll get the Mahle.
Supertech K24 pistons with 4cc dome volume will have to do for now.

All bearing shell widths of the the K20 product are standard K20a2 width. They are not wider such as offered on some of the BC products.

I have set the main clearances to about 40-45µm using combinations of three sizes of KingXP bearing shells (STD, +25µm, -25µm). Virtually all of the variation of the journal sizes originated from the block. The ZRP parts main and rod journals were all within 1-2µm of each other. It was almost spooky to measure. Rods were the the same.
A slight let-down were the rather large piston weight and even worst gudgeon pin weight variations of the Supertech product. It was a fair bit of work to get at least the pin and piston combinations into a matched set of 4.

I added a 1.2mm shim to the oil pump spring for a tad extra pressure at higher revs. I have ported the pump's output passage into the dowel.
Oil will be a 5W40.
Oil cooling is provided by a big 330mm C43 series Laminova oil to water heat exchanger.
I have also installed a CPLRacing sump baffle. This part is popular among Elise Honda conversions. Oil starvation is one of the few ways to a kill a Honda in a Elise.

The ARP L19 rod bolts ZRP provided got replaced by ARP CustomAge625+ items.
This is aimed to better cope with the rater large piston acceleration figures of a low R/S ratio engine. Markus made me aware of the issue.
I tightened them with a ARP stretch gauge.

Cams are Toda A3 plus their single springs and OEM retainers. Intake plenum is a CNC ported RRC. Cutting, porting and rewelding was done by DZIAK Moorsport in Poland. Looks very nice.

I have port matched the head to the plenum. The opening has about the size of the OEM gasket openings. I have inserted 9mmx8.5mm brass pipes into the plenum stud holes to get reproducible alignment of the plenum runners to the head's ports. I have checked it with a endoscope.

I was looking at various sources for recommended mean piston speeds. I will likely set the rev limit to about 8800 (5370 ft/min, 27,3 m/sec) for the road and to about 8200 (5000 ft/min, 25.4 m/sec), maybe 8300 for track work.
My Lotus Elise is primary a road car after all. It won't see much rev limiter action anyhow. Traktion is not an issue with RWD, 60% of the weight on the rear axle and compared to the low weight of the car 225 section rear tyres.

I expect peak power to occur somewhere between 8000 and 8300 rpm.

I know the R/S ratio is rather low. Bearing width is not as wide as on other kits, but I doubt there will be issues.
The biggest risk will be premature bore or piston wear.
At worst, it is an excuse for a 89mm rebuild with sleeves :)

Any initial input for me regarding VTC angles and VTEC points for this motor, the rev limits or other pitfalls?
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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...Oil will be a 5W40.
The viscosity choose guided along the higher piston side forces?

...Oil cooling is provided by a big 330mm C43 series Laminova oil to water heat exchanger.
That is huge :wow:

...Toda A3 plus...a CNC ported RRC...
That torque curve will get interesting. I am looking forward to see the comparison to K20actr.J's engine.

...I was looking at various sources for recommended mean piston speeds. I will likely set the rev limit to about 8800 (5370 ft/min, 27,3 m/sec) for the road and to about 8200 (5000 ft/min, 25.4 m/sec), maybe 8300 for track work.
I would do pretty much the same. A mean piston speed (MPS) of around 27 m/s is widely seen as durable concerning oil film stability or oil wetting capability. It doesn't mean the mechanical stability is covered by rating with that approach :wink:.

I recognized if you plot maximum piston acceleration and velocity over a constant mean speed (here 27 m/s) and a varying stroke from 60-110 mm in a 212.09 mm block height (K20A block size), the peak acceleration varies from 7315 [email protected] mm stroke to 4775 [email protected] mm stroke while peak velocity differs only slightly from 43 m/s to 46 m/s respectively concerning stroke. This means the oil wetting of an increment area of the liner (ring area = increment here) is nearly the same concerning peak. So we can conclude the lowest duration of such an oil wetting mass flux is - or vice versa - depended only on mean piston velocity. Just my loud thoughts :D

...Any initial input for me regarding VTC angles and VTEC points for this motor, the rev limits or other pitfalls?
VTC: depends on header, CAT-back efficiency and VTEC switch point. Did you measure max. safe VTC angle?
Revving limits: your mentioned are just like I would recommend it. I would give the oil choose effort and time to adapt the low R/S ratio. Oil film stability is not necessarily a function of viscosity. Ground oil distillation and mixing as well as additives rules significantly more than that. There are 0W20 grade oils which has higher film stability than 10W60, as long as the minimum film height is guaranteed. 2005's V10 engines of Formula One revved with 5W30 up to 27 m/s MPS (19,000 rpm), in that time many teams switched from 5 or 10W50 to lower viscosity. As a thumb rule: as long as you can lift the main bearings with an minimum oil pressure of 0.7 [email protected] rpm and 3.0 [email protected] rpm the Honda minimum specification is achieved.

I would go with an 30 [email protected] °C grade oil, do short oil intervals of 2000-2500 km, keep oil temperature around 100-120 °C to extract water and fuel from oil sufficiently into blowby. With CAT use an ACEA or API certification for gasoline engines like Mobil 1 5W30 ESP, 5W30 Valvoline MaxLife or 5W30 Pentosin Pento Super Performance III or if no CAT examples like 5W30 Motul 300V and 0W30 Gulf Competition, both are highly diluted :wink: by zinc and phosphor. Not recommendable are racing specified oil's, these have in generally a lower detergent level and other stuff, which doesn't fit your application of track and mostly street usage nor acceptable oil change intervals.

BTW, Honda specs oil grade to 30 [email protected] °C, so if you have bearing clearances at the upper range Honda recommends, the oil flux would be higher with an e.g. 5W30 compared to an 5W40 oil. That mean better cooling of parts also via squitter at the liners = higher piston cooling power for less piston expansion and at less parasitic loss. Sounds not bad to me.

Are you going to use an thermostat bypass for the oil water cooler?

Markus
 

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Hello Markus,
This viscosity is what most Elise folks use in their K20 conversions.
Combined with the larger bearing clearances, this should work well.
The clearances are on the edge of Honda's limits for max clearance.

The large Laminova stems from the initial intend of using a supercharger.
As it couples oil temps to water temps to a degree, being to large won't matter too much.
I do not run a thermostat. It is not required. Water will heat up faster then the oil anyhow. It is a selfregulated system.

I did clay the motor. Remember, I send you the pictures of the red clay cuts.
Plently*of clearance at 50deg on the hi cam inlet and outlet.
I hope I did it correctly, but it seemed like all three rockers moved in unison.

On saturday, I can measure the ID and length of the primaries of the 4-1.
Last time I only had a crude meter for construction work at hand. ID is around 42mm IIRC.
The system is very light. I try to remember bringing a balance to the garage next week end.

Cat will be a 101mm 100 cell cat converter followed by a 2.5" 2bular H1 race repackable exhaust. It is mostly straight through, but has a about 5cm long chamber at the entry. Chamber entry and exit are opposing eath other.
Without that small chamber, it would not pass noise limits on track. Static and low load noise is taken care of by my valve system.

Regarding torque curve, what surprises would you expect?
Runner width is about 52mm on the head side. Inlets are slightly more trumped shaped. I can take more measurements, if required and accessible. The plenum is not mounted yet.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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...This viscosity is what most Elise folks use in their K20 conversions. Combined with the larger bearing clearances, this should work well. The clearances are on the edge of Honda's limits for max clearance.
I had a 10W50 in my last (stock longblock) engine, idle pressure was at 1.9 [email protected] °C oil temperature. I did "upgrade" viscosity because the engine had an overheating before, where the engine run some 100 seconds without coolant and it was already knocking at low load tip in's. I don't know if this approach was good, but the engine run further 1000's km. I also don't know if the 40 wt approach is the necessary on for built K-series engines, but I will definitely give the 30 wt a trial within my engine project.

...The large Laminova stems from the initial intend of using a supercharger.
:cool:

...As it couples oil temps to water temps to a degree, being to large won't matter too much...I do not run a thermostat. It is not required. Water will heat up faster then the oil anyhow. It is a selfregulated system.
Yes it is, but your oil temps will be maybe too low to vaporize the fuel out of the oil. Especially on the track at high speed and high engine speed. With the bigger Laminova (I have the 185 mm piece) the Temperature difference between oil and coolant is just smaller and oil temperature follows coolant temperature faster compared to the smaller one. My point is, cooling temperature of coolant and oil are not optimal when connected, especially when the temperature difference of both outlet's is low.

The optimal coolant temperature is related to knock suppressing and to cover heat capacity for the huge heat flux range and gradients to keep parts thermal tension low. So a safety distance to boiling temperature is necessary to keep at local heat sources (e.g. liner top and around exhaust valves) even at low flux velocities of coolant no vaporization -> coolant outlet temperature of 88 °C could be of that upper range.

The optimal oil temperature is around 105 to 115 °C to keep it at lowest viscosity without cracking and low oxidation and in the other hand to boil of fuel and water of it into the blowby.

So let's say for simplification 85 and 115 °C, which is 30 °C temperature difference at engine outlet. With that big oil-to-coolant-cooler you reduce it likely too 10 °C and lower. So the system, as it is coolant dominated (higher specific heat capacity and several times higher mass flux), will reduce the oil temperature likely below 100 °C. That's pretty good for an DD with low amount of WOT use (enrichment), but on track this is "uncool" and yes because it is closed loop controlled by water temperature :wink:

...I did clay the motor. Remember, I send you the pictures of the red clay cuts...Plently*of clearance at 50deg on the hi cam inlet and outlet....On saturday, I can measure the ID and length of the primaries of the 4-1...Cat will be a 101mm 100 cell cat converter followed by a 2.5" 2bular H1 race repackable exhaust.
Depending on the runner length of the header I would guess VTEC comes pretty early at around 4800 rpm with, depending on your header scavenging efficiency, 35-40 °C VTC till the break point where the RRC loose "power" or VE decreases. With the 2.2 liter displacement and TODA A3 camshafts, this will be likely around 6000-6500 rpm, from that point on a slight and non-linear retard profile of VTC of around 10° till 7800 rpm will happen and further 5-10° retard till redline.

...It is mostly straight through, but has a about 5cm long chamber at the entry. Chamber entry and exit are opposing eath other.
Without that small chamber, it would not pass noise limits on track. Static and low load noise is taken care of by my valve system.
:scared:

We already have chosen for the T-style absorption technology muffler from Vibrant performance (60.5 mm inlet, 2 x 57.15 mm outlet), which has an huge volume (oval top 6"x10" and 24" long). According my simulation the noise specs for Green Hell (near field: 95 dB(A)) are slightly exceeded by around 5 dB(A) (5500 rpm, WOT) reached. Did you ever seen them measuring it at idle load and redline engine speed? According their rules this is the approach. I didn't simulate the zero load redline yet, but the run by noise of 130 dB(A) of course, and this is easy to reach with it, according the simulation.

...Regarding torque curve, what surprises would you expect?
Depending your header efficiency and taking into account the CAT I would say 270 [email protected] krpm and 290 [email protected] krpm, the head stock, so VE is around 1.14 at the peak values. Do you use RDX-injectors? Those would be around 80 % duty cycle...a pretty nice fit with gasoline. Are you going to tune it with Super Plus (92-93 AKI or 98-100 RON).
 

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I'll monitor oil temps and pressure after the Laminova. I am sure, I'll still exceed 100C on track. Also, for evaporation, sump temp is what counts. If the oil enters the engine at 85 or 90C, it will be >100C by the time it made it into the sump.

I have never been to the Nordschleife, so can't comment on their noise procedures.

My car was JUST below being not OK at Bilster Berg drive resort wit the old supercharged Rover K, but this particular muffler.
A friend with a non-chambered 8x24 2bular fed by a JRSC K20 in a S1 Elise was a tad above. He needs a repack, I guess. At full chat and 8000, it is NOT quiet.
Here is a video from the stone ages. Hi speed oval on the Bosch Test Center in Boxberg
https://youtu.be/mfRPBEiJUH4

I also reuse the injectors from my Rover. They are Bosch 470cc/min @3 bar units from a Opel Corsa OPC. I'll run them at 3.5 bar static. I'll have it mapped on 98 Octane fuel, but fill it with 102 Octane fuel for track use.

The first about 2cm upwards from the intake valve seats got reworked. Just a little clean up when the seats were recut. Overall minor work to maintain port velocity. He agreed with you on no need to further enlarge these already huge ports for the intended rev range and use.

OK, I'll open up a new thread. Don't want to highjack this excellent threat any further.
 

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Discussion Starter · #213 ·
With CAT use an ACEA or API certification for gasoline engines like Mobil 1 5W30 ESP, 5W30 Valvoline MaxLife or 5W30 Pentosin Pento Super Performance III or if no CAT examples like 5W30 Motul 300V and 0W30 Gulf Competition, both are highly diluted by zinc and phosphor. Not recommendable are racing specified oil's, these have in generally a lower detergent level and other stuff, which doesn't fit your application of track and mostly street usage nor acceptable oil change intervals
Phosphorus of the last version 5w30 ester core 300v is about 950-1000ppm.
Sr5,300v i know very well that don't uses today the old school oil technology of high ppm phosphorus.
They found others methods to make strong oils.

I have run civic eg esi for 5 years 300v 10w40 from 97 to 2002.
Never had issues with stock catalytic conv.
And we speak about older oil type 300v (before named ester core with higher phosphorus )
 
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