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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Discussion Starter #1
Something what is me really fascinating is Bonneville landspeed racing, flatness, salt everywhere, simple straight tracks and a lot of racing and landspeed record aiming enthusiasts :D. I mentioned this in the Hobby-threat of the Coffee Shop-section and wrote I would like to talk about this, maybe this will get to an real project of some enthusiasts?!

As written, I would love to construct a 2 liter engine and chassis design for a Boneville car (engine class G, chassis e.g. Gas Altered Coupe-GALT class), as there is still the 8 year old record of Hondata/Mcmillan, which is 183.7 mph according Bonneville records list 2015. This engine would have a similar character of an drag race engine, as high end torque/power accelerate the vehicle up to new velocity levels. The above mentioned racing class is a bit forgotten at K20a.org, as the 2 liter engines seems to die at K20a.org. DRAG presented just today a very interesting 2 liter project, with the words...

DRAG said:
Since it has been sort of stagnant in here, I figured...
...which need some new projects and stories, like DRAG did, to get the Honda enthusiasts back to K20a.org.

Back to topic. To break McMillans record at Bonneville of roughly 184 mph engine, chassis, team, support and budget has all work together, as this record is a real challenge, just see the following calculation of an Lotus Elise with an example of an 2 liter, calculated with the Dynamic Chassis Model (DCM) I did use for my 86.5x86 engine project.

2 liter engine with 266 whp
F_L = air drag force, F_R = rolling friction force, F_B = acceleration force, VS = Vehicle Speed, F_S not mentioned as salt is flat = no lift force.

As you can see, the system of chassis and engine would fail to break (about 172 mph), more power or better air drag coefficient is needed. BTW, the final drive was set to 4.0 for the calculation, a better result would be possible by increasing engine speed and increasing the final drive ratio. Actually the my matrix variables are limited, once I increased it further revving would be possible :D.

Who is interested in building a Bonneville car? Who is already on the way of doing a Bonneville project in that racing class? Who did already race in Bonneville? Timot_one, did you already contact that team you spoke about? I am really curious what we bring together :D!

Markus
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Discussion Starter #2
Forgott to write 266 whp at 1200 m over sea level! And the friction coefficient of salt is only assumed...if anyone has a better suggestion as 1.5 higher than normal street, let me know.

Thanks

Markus
 

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It would be great to be part of a team like that. I just don't know how many teams are self funded and competitive in their class.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Discussion Starter #6
Didn't Hondata also break a record with a supercharged k series motor too?
In '10, I guess it was his wife who did break a record with the modified CRX with (engine class F, race class FCC, Hondata CRX, M. Macmillan, 8 /10, 204.364 mph) and yes, this is SC'd engine.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
It would be great. Do it!
It would be great to be part of a team like that. I just don't know how many teams are self funded and competitive in their class.
You guys are greatly welcomed to run this project together, as I live just 7,500 km away from Bonneville. I have a second engine, which I want to build up for higher engine speeds (up to 10,000 rpm) with custom parts for IM, H. High engine speeds are one key for Bonneville = higher final drive gear ratio = higher wheel torque for same flywheel torque. I would love to bring it to the US to run it in a car.

We need guys, having a chassis, time, will and some DIY competence to build up a chassis for the FCC class. Once there is a chassis available, there are areodynamic modifications and testing necessary...I will do a list to get the brain storming about it started :D. We need parts for the engine build...a lot of stuff...ufff :D

Markus
 

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Hey Markus, i love the idea!!
I could offer you my help, here on this side of the ocean/bonneville; Doing pre-prep work. (Engine build etc.)
I do not know if i could find/take the time off to go to bonneville.
So your best bet would be to have 2 teams?? One in Germany/Europe, that build/test the engine, one in the USA that build and test the chassis? I think bringing a whole car to the usa is not cheap..??
So, perhaps, if you start a list, of how this should happen, i will watch and if something shows up, that i can promise to do, and keep my word, i will contact you, here, or private, unkay??
Keep up the good work, buddy!!
Mounty/Markus

P.S.: You would be breaking the land speed record, each and every weekend, just getting to bonneville from Germany, and back again, for work on Monday morning....
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Discussion Starter #9
Hey Markus, i love the idea!!
I could offer you my help, here on this side of the ocean/bonneville; Doing pre-prep work. (Engine build etc.)
Hi Markus, I greatly appreciate your offer! Yes, I believe also two part of ONE TEAM should be installed to be more cost efficient. The bigger one in the US for chassis, body and gear box preparation and one for the engine here in GER.

Best would be, one of us in the US want to, or is already on the way to, build up a Drag Race car, as the spec paper isn't that far away from a Bonneville landspeed car. The hole thing could build up drag race near to find synergies and cost reduction potentials. Best would be drag race build out of the 2 liter class (if something like that exists) with no wheel case widening body modifications.

I do not know if i could find/take the time off to go to bonneville.
What ever you can give is ok. I thought of investing my year holiday time for bringing the engine there, install and test it and being there when race happens :D. I have to talk to my wife...

...if you start a list, of how this should happen, i will watch and if something shows up, that i can promise to do...
Thanks Markus! That list, I will start this evening.

A dude at work will give me a contact to a 2 wheel Bonneville racer here at my place. I need to clarify all that main issues every Bonneville guy will go through, which can't be tested before (salt, weather conditions, fuel types, part availability, ...). Hopefully there will be also a contact possible over timot_one.
 

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I'm looking forward to this. I would definitely love to help, time permitting.

Is there a specific chassis you have in mind?
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Discussion Starter #11
Is there a specific chassis you have in mind?
Thanks, timot_one!

First priority for chassis is availability :D, 2nd priority is c_w x A_car (air drag coefficient and cross section of car), 3rd priority is driving stability at high speeds. Would you add anything or change?

I have to check the race class rules whether chassis and engine make are bounded or free to choose as for engine the K20 is duty :D. Most likely are CRX and RSX chassis...but let me check this.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Discussion Starter #13
I'm not that smart.
That makes two of us :D. Things we don't know, we learn by doing :wink:, so I assume that row of priorities will work for us.

Do you have a idea where to get a chassis or someone starting a drag race project, making a landspeed record at a sideway :D?! Next, I will come back with a list, hopefully giving that project a rough structure :D

Markus
 

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In this case, I would consider starting with a blank canvas and try to find a chassis that hasn't been modified. I'm sure the safety requirements for a drag car and a land speed car are different. It may be more expensive to modify an existing drag car. I know a few cage builders/fabricators who's work I trust.



I think that figuring out what chassis to start with is the best way to approach this. Consider what would have a low drag coefficient and what would be stable at high speeds. It would be nice to keep it in a Honda chassis, but anything is possible.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Discussion Starter #15
...It may be more expensive to modify an existing crag car. I know a few cage builders/fabricators who's work I trust.
Sounds good :).

I think that figuring out what chassis to start with is the best way to approach this. Consider what would have a low drag coefficient and what would be stable at high speeds. It would be nice to keep it in a Honda chassis, but anything is possible.
According wikipedia data and concerning Honda products:
Very attractive chassis is the '99-'06 Hond Insight, which has an Cd x A of 0.474 m², this is one of the best in the market and 11 % lower (= better) than that of the '91 CR-X Si (CdA = 0.53 m²), which is already better than guessing 98 % of the market. Other make GM EV1 (= 0.367 m²)...all have around a width of around 1,670 - 1,765 mm and a wheel base from 2,200 - 2,400 mm where the EV1 looks most attractive (longest wheel base and widest front axis...rear is like insight smaller).

Once a K20 power plant get into a CR-X it should be also go into a EV1...which should be validated and cross checked with the rules.
 

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Arouse the DAMPFHAMMER!
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Discussion Starter #16
Just as an example:
  • stock 4.764 final drive ratio
  • revving band up to 10,500 rpm
  • 268 [email protected] krpm...just for example :D
  • CdA of 0.474 m²
  • basic rolling drag coefficient 2 times higher compared to street
will give...
195 mph at timed mile. Would be a very specialized engine build with a very very peaky VE band.

With the CdA of the GM EV1 and everything else same it would be 207 mph :wow:. Who want to race it :D?

For me it seems to be one major key's as 12 mph for "free". Engine power is somewhere limeted, just a question of money if you have 10 hp less or more, but chassis choice could lay down records for years. What do you think about chassis priority?

Markus
 

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I think finding a GM EV1 will be more difficult than an Insight. I still see a random Insight driving around on the road today. I've never seen an EV1.
 

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Insight is good!! My mom has one.. as a 4 door. Is it within regulations to 'chop' the cars, or do they have to be 'close to serial vehicle'?? Does Honda make a 2 door Insight?? Other possibility is the Canadian CSX (Acura). It is close, if not identical to the rsx, also the K20 powerhouse. I have no ideas what used prices are like..
Questions about engine: All new or will used parts be used too?? I have a complete engine, needs tear-down and re-build. i would 'give' this to the cause, if i am allowed to drive in the car sometime, when it is finished.. not me driving, just as a passenger is more than fine!!!

So,, my offer:
My time, when possible, as much as you need/can handle of me.
Engine/parts/sourcing of engine parts from usa, importing parts (cheaper)
Tools/Engine build stand/engine crane
My brain, I love troubleshooting/coming up with solutions.. call me a thinker, not a number cruncher/statistics keeper.. show/tel me what/where the problem is, and i will do my darndest to find a fix...
Mounty

Just an Idea: TV team/show about your (our) "Road to Bonneville", with Sponsoring (Material/Money/Logistics)?? There are more than enough shows about tuning etc, and i do believe this would wake interest in the viewers
 

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Is it within regulations to 'chop' the cars, or do they have to be 'close to serial vehicle'?? Does Honda make a 2 door Insight??

I'm not sure what the current rules are, but I know that they would chop the tops and lower the rooflines and put nose caps on 30's Fords. Here's are a few examples of the SoCal and Pierson Brothers '34 Ford Bonneville cars.







Here's the most common Honda Insight that I have seen in racing.


A good example is Brian Gillespie's land speed Insight.


 
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