Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results - K20A.org .:. The K Series Source . Honda / Acura K20a k24a Engine Forum
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Old 06-24-2015, 03:48 PM   #1
SickSilver_ep3
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Default Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results

106x90
aluminum rods
MCP 37mm intake cyl head
Prayoonto stage 6 cams
Ferrea roller rockers
67mm cnc match kinsler itbs
Prayoonto hood exit header
Tuned on Aem Infinity



Humble Performance Project GreenGo Ek



Update found some more power
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Old 06-24-2015, 04:51 PM   #2
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Old 06-24-2015, 05:03 PM   #3
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Default Re: Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results

car is smooooth!! runs like a car with an IM and tb
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Old 06-24-2015, 05:03 PM   #4
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Default Re: Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results

Damn crazy numbers. What race fuel?
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Old 06-24-2015, 06:34 PM   #5
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Default Re: Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results

Whiplash....
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Old 06-24-2015, 06:52 PM   #6
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Default Re: Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results

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Damn crazy numbers. What race fuel?
Ftw fuel
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Old 06-24-2015, 06:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results

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Is this good? Lol
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Old 06-24-2015, 08:24 PM   #8
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Default Re: Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results

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Is this good? Lol
Yes. I saw this at work. Damn near fell out my chair haha.
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Old 06-24-2015, 10:30 PM   #9
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Default Re: Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results

Quote:
Originally Posted by SickSilver_ep3 View Post
...Humble Performance Project GreenGo Ek
High end NA results

This is a BMEP about 18.1 [email protected] krpm, typical range of a soft forced induction...that's really a high end result, especially when the BMEP declines just only to 16.3 [email protected] krpm. In terms of torque and power a really high end NA result...a compliment to all guys done that great work and great engine development .

I would have so many questions about the tune, the AEM handling and the engine development, but I would understand if you want to keep it as a secret .

Keep it going
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Old 06-25-2015, 06:05 AM   #10
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Default Re: Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results

Great results.. Shows Norris and his team are still on top of their game.
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Old 06-25-2015, 06:55 AM   #11
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Default Re: Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results

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High end NA results

This is a BMEP about 18.1 [email protected] krpm, typical range of a soft forced induction...that's really a high end result, especially when the BMEP declines just only to 16.3 [email protected] krpm. In terms of torque and power a really high end NA result...a compliment to all guys done that great work and great engine development .

I would have so many questions about the tune, the AEM handling and the engine development, but I would understand if you want to keep it as a secret .

Keep it going
i assume your bmep numbers are calculated using estimated crank figures based on these dyno figures?

Any question you have shoot i will try to answer the best i can.

I am confident i can break 430whp next time this thing is on the dyno. With learning all the new features and layout of the Aem infinity i completely forgot about an aspect of tuning that we have always seen positive results with when using kinsler itbs vs a manifold with stock location injectors. I need to address some clutch issues im having before i strap her down again. hoping its just a cmc change but we shall see.
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Old 06-25-2015, 01:45 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by SickSilver_ep3 View Post
i assume your bmep numbers are calculated using estimated crank figures based on these dyno figures?
Yes indeed . I assumed a drivetrain efficiency of 0.93 (e.g. 266 wlbft/0.93 = 286 lbft at flywheel, BMEP = torque * engine speed * 2 * PI() / (displacement * engine speed * z), z =: 0.5 for a 4 stroke engine)

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Any question you have shoot i will try to answer the best i can.
Thanks, I will try not too shoot to swift

First question would be a simple one. Which and how many wideband brand do you use for tuning?

Second one. Does the lambda values differs during a run on track significantly (> 0.02 or 0.3 in terms of AFR) for certain gears? E.g. in gear #1 it is more rich than in #3.

I will come back for more later ...if you don't mind
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...I am confident i can break 430whp next time this thing is on the dyno.
First approximation assumes about 3.7 [email protected] krpm of FMEP (= IMEP - BMEP) with a 5W40 [email protected] C. Using a [email protected] C would be 3.4 [email protected] krpm of FMEP, which is equal to nearly 6 hp...an option I wouldn't use. But just a jump in oil temp from 78 C to 90 C will reduce friction by adding 8 hp (if it has no effect on knocking )...just to show the lever of for additional power at those high engine speeds...nearly 100 hp [email protected] krpm due to friction or in other words a mechanical efficiency of [email protected] krpm.

I am also curious if there is a potential left at IMEP side, e.g. the combustion velocity (combustion chamber and intake port design and combustion chamber surface), residual content (header, piston shape, intake and outlet design at valve and ports and intake ITB's)...not mentioned the VE pillars: intake and outlet path design and so on...and last and maybe least the ignition impact (coil energy, electrode design, way of supplying the energy). Would be a great task to work on that to find some more ponies...I am a tiny bit green-eyed

Quote:
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With learning all the new features and layout of the Aem infinity...
There are some left , e.g. the decelaration table (flame at exhaust says it is not tuned ). If you don't mind, my next question would be out of that field.
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Old 06-25-2015, 02:14 PM   #13
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Default Re: Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results

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Originally Posted by LotusElise View Post
Yes indeed . I assumed a drivetrain efficiency of 0.93 (e.g. 266 wlbft/0.93 = 286 lbft at flywheel, BMEP = torque * engine speed * 2 * PI() / (displacement * engine speed * z), z =: 0.5 for a 4 stroke engine)


Thanks, I will try not too shoot to swift

First question would be a simple one. Which and how many wideband brand do you use for tuning?

Second one. Does the lambda values differs during a run on track significantly (> 0.02 or 0.3 in terms of AFR) for certain gears? E.g. in gear #1 it is more rich than in #3.

I will come back for more later ...if you don't mind

First approximation assumes about 3.7 [email protected] krpm of FMEP (= IMEP - BMEP) with a 5W40 [email protected] C. Using a [email protected] C would be 3.4 [email protected] krpm of FMEP, which is equal to nearly 6 hp...an option I wouldn't use. But just a jump in oil temp from 78 C to 90 C will reduce friction by adding 8 hp (if it has no effect on knocking )...just to show the lever of for additional power at those high engine speeds...nearly 100 hp [email protected] krpm due to friction or in other words a mechanical efficiency of [email protected] krpm.

I am also curious if there is a potential left at IMEP side, e.g. the combustion velocity (combustion chamber and intake port design and combustion chamber surface), residual content (header, piston shape, intake and outlet design at valve and ports and intake ITB's)...not mentioned the VE pillars: intake and outlet path design and so on...and last and maybe least the ignition impact (coil energy, electrode design, way of supplying the energy). Would be a great task to work on that to find some more ponies...I am a tiny bit green-eyed


There are some left , e.g. the decelaration table (flame at exhaust says it is not tuned ). If you don't mind, my next question would be out of that field.
I have an infinity 8H. it uses one wideband mine is placed after the collector in the megaphone.

With the series 2 or kpro our general approach to hitting the track would be to add 5% of fuel and this usually results in a small amount of fuel needed to be taken out after first round of qualifying.

but, with the infinity i will be experimenting with this being VE based with powerful lambda feedback.

1-2nd gear with no gear based fueling done will always be richer from what ive seen. and added fuel was a way of limiting power in 1st gear paired with pulled timing on my setup. using gear based compensation on fueling i was able to get 2nd gear leaner. 3rd and 4th will be similar. the air scoop im sure has an effect on this with positive pressure in these two gears.


The decel fuel is to be expected. the flames are much more pronounced with methanol based fuel. I have elected to leave the injectors on when the tps drops to zero above a specified rpm to increase the smoothness for on and off throttle. closing 67mm itbs and shutting off the injectors at the same time as proven to be quite the bucking bronco in the past on our two all motor cars.

this can be tuned in the aem infinity setup for basically how much fuel is waiting for you when you get back on the throttle but i have left these setting at their defaults for now.
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Old 06-25-2015, 03:41 PM   #14
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Default Re: Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results

156whp/Liter UNREAL

Congrats ep3, always loved your hatch
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Old 06-25-2015, 04:07 PM   #15
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Default Re: Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results

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156whp/Liter UNREAL

Congrats ep3, always loved your hatch
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Old 06-25-2015, 08:59 PM   #16
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Default Re: Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results

Ready for some 9 sec passes!
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Old 06-26-2015, 06:08 AM   #17
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Default Re: Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results

Man that is freakkin crazy, I am here like wh00t 250 whp is already going fast!

Very nice! Looking forward for some nice 1/4 mile passes
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Old 06-26-2015, 11:08 PM   #18
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Default Re: Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results

Thanks SickSilver_ep3, I appreciate your answers
Quote:
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...track would be to add 5% of fuel and this usually results in a small amount of fuel needed to be taken out after first round of qualifying.
Does it mean you run your ITB's on a pure Alpha-N-mode?

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...but, with the infinity i will be experimenting with this being VE based with powerful lambda feedback.
There should be a VE correction table possible as a function of atmospheric pressure and temperature once the VE is measured for one pair of PA and IAT over the air flow equation. This would be based on the rationale of VE and load (= current airmass / theoretical airmass) correlate linearly once the changes of those parameters are small. Could be programmed in e.g. Excel. The process would be:
  1. measure IAT and PA
  2. correct the VE table according the calculated correction in the Excel sheet
  3. validate with the first run
This could save one run for correction iteration.

Quote:
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...the air scoop im sure has an effect on this with positive pressure in these two gears.
I think also this way, you got around 4 [email protected] km/h and 17 [email protected] km/h additional pressure through ramming (perfect placed induction). The ram effect is just a bit reduced by the airflow around the VS. Possible the cooling of the intake (effect on IAT) could have also a positiv effect on the load in terms of density in addition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SickSilver_ep3 View Post
...I have elected to leave the injectors on when the tps drops to zero above a specified rpm to increase the smoothness for on and off throttle. closing 67mm itbs and shutting off the injectors at the same time as proven to be quite the bucking bronco in the past on our two all motor cars.
That's quite interesting. What does the lambda do during the shifting (needs a short zero TPS or any other engine speed reduction method for a better synchroniziation) without a fuel cut? Must be getting really rich, doesn't it?

Quote:
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...this can be tuned in the aem infinity setup for basically how much fuel is waiting for you when you get back on the throttle...
That's one of the best advantages over the Hondata emulator...deceleration and acceleration enrichment tables...shifting will get more smooth and the tip in torque reduction method via retarding the ignition timing (tip in retarding) get's of an real value. Did you see any advantage concerning shifting slippage by examination of the tip in retarding?

As my engine isn't of that power and the RWD plus Semi's reduces the tip in slippage enormously, I didn't have the chance to investigate the effect of that methode on this item. Maybe you already did it?! And maybe it effects only the torsional oscillation of the drivetrain...but I am not sure about a FWD with a torque of 260 lbft
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Old 06-27-2015, 07:41 AM   #19
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Default Re: Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results

I do run everything throttle vs rpm based. With a map sensor for any positive pressure fueling (this is new for this year and infinity with series 2 i had no map sensor on the car). the map sensor reads 0 at all times on the dyno.

The Infinity system in case you didnt know runs backwards in terms of airflow model. there is no air meter. When it has injector data, fuel pressure and whatever VE number in the table it injects a certain amount of fuel to hit your specified target. the error of this comes back to the VE number and this is what you tune. you may already know this but your post made it a little unclear for me on this. The IAT compensaiton is always going on in the background of the software.


Your question about lambda on shifting does not apply to me because i shift full throttle. Also with no power reduction to answer your later questions. But, under decel like you saw in the dyno video the lambda will drop into the .70's or so from my .85 target for areas under full throttle. this is quickly caught by the +- 20% lambda feedback and brought up some. I have dialed this in some at the bottom of the VE map for 0% throttle. any time the car is accelerating the tps is going to be above 0 so i saw no ill effects with drive ability with the low Ve values at 0 and quickly increasing by 5% throttle.

the tip in performance of this ecu just out of the box has really surprised me even with basically no tuning done specifically to this. once the Ve table was solid it ran up and down the revs on the dyno like no other big itb all motor car we have ever touched on hondata or aem series 2.


the lambda and torque reduction for synchronization is mute. I run a 4 speed dog engagement system on my car and no power reduction or throttle lift is done as mentioned above. I will be switching to a strain gauge shift knob at some point this year so it will have a very brief cut to get it to shift without the clutch full throttle.
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Old 06-28-2015, 09:39 AM   #20
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Default Re: Prayoonto 2.7 Dyno Results

Pretty interesting answers...thanks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SickSilver_ep3 View Post
...throttle vs rpm based. With a map sensor for...
May I was misleading, I meant a pressure sensor before the TB, shortly after airbox intake velocity stack...maybe placed together with the IAT. So let's call it an IAP sensor. Both sensors will measure the actual inlet air temperature and inlet air pressure (static pressure).

As long as volumetric efficiency is defined as VE = V_rel / V_cyl, where rel =: relative filling and cyl =: theoretical filling of the cylinder, we can assume VE = f(Alpha, n) has to be corrected by IAT and IAP. Background is, VE varies with the engine load, which is defined as L = current airmass / theoretical airmass. With ideal gas equation we can see m_air,th = V_rel * IAP / (R_L * IAT), where R_L the specific gas constant is. Therefore VE = f(Alpha, n) has to be corrected by IAT and IAP.

As you mentioned, AEM integrated this already for IAT. Maybe it could be done also for IAP?
Quote:
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Your question about lambda on shifting does not apply to me because i shift full throttle. ...any time the car is accelerating the tps is going to be above 0...I run a 4 speed dog engagement system on my car and no power reduction or throttle lift is done as mentioned above...
Wow, pretty much techniques in that drag racing level. So synchronisation of the gear shift is just supported via one or two cycles without ignition? You wrote torque reduction is mute (does mute mean deactivated?), but I thought even a dog box nead synchronization support via a short torque dip?!

Do you use a second fuel line or a further away placed fuel line/injectors (see below) for better charge cooling (giving a higher air density, more ignition advance or if MBT already reached a higher CR)?

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