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Old 01-01-2012, 01:11 AM   #1
Master_Scythe
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Red face k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

Hello all, I'm new, and from Australia.
I recently purchased a base model integra (RSX for you USA people).

Why? Well over here, I got my base with less than 100k-KM, for $9000. The closest TypeR\S was over $16k. Also 98RON is not cheap, nor available everywhere. And after covering 900km on one tank, without feeling TOO much lacking power, i'm happy with my purchase.

Now, I'm always doing something unique with everything I own. So I got to thinking "Lets kill Stock TypeR's without spending money!"
On the track, I have no hope. Better suspension, higher redline, additional gear, and so on. But with speed limits, building a better 'streeter' is more than achievable, based on my research.

I have money. Enough to take a full build very seriously. But this is quite a unique goal, and one hope to share with people looking for performance on a budget.

I however am a total noob; this is my first venture into anyhting besides external bolt-ons and maintenance.
Enough Rambling.

I have questions I need answered.



I am buying a set of Stage2 Brian Crower cams. Will I need to modify the valvetrain?
Im thinking no, as long as I dont take the redline above 7000RPM; whats the agreed 'limit' of the stock springs\retainers? One of my reasons for believing this, is that Skunk2 S1 cams, dont NEED new springs (recommended though) and the lift is much less in the BC's (BC2-S2 softer than Sk2-S1).

Looking at the BC cams, they have a much longer duration, but less lift; what does this mean in simple english in terms of how it will effect performance?
From what I can research, it seems to mean stronger bottom end\torque, but less high end\max HP, yes? no?

Will I NEED k-pro to safely drive the car?
Kpro is on the books, for sure, but the cost is rather high. I know I will only see 50% of the possible gains (if that) from my bolt-ons and cams, but can the stock ECU safely get me around?

Do I need to worry about 'claying the engine' with such mild cams?
JDM stock cams on th A2 are much more agressive, and ive seen people swap cams, and Vtec-Kill in the A3 head, without claying. Assuming I adjust the clearances to those specified in HELMS after the cam swap, is P to V contact very unlikely? At 50* advance?




Thank you for any help, I'm a very sensible DIY-er and very technical minded, so i'm looking forward to my first trip into the head.

For anyone not interested in the 'simple stuff' stop reading here and empart your wisdom on me








Otherwise
My other plans for simple bolt ons are easy;

Hondata airbox mod has already been completed to extremes; I took most of the middle wall out too, and epoxy'd the 'gap' shut for the least resistance possible.

Rota Subzero wheels will be ordered soon; There are way better wheels, and I wouldnt dare run them on the track, ive seen what 'abuse' can do to ROTA's, but no one can deny the amazing Weight-to-Cost ratio of these wheels. Find me cheaper and lighter, available in Australia, and I'll get those instead.

KiddRacing header is about to be ordered; While a lot of people are obsessing over the JDM TypeR manifold\exhaust, other Tri-Y headers are making a budget killing ammount of torque, and some top end to boot. There are better, but at $500 delivered, kiddracing is hard to beat.

I have solid shifter bushings arriving; Ive been in a car with the full shifter bushing kit, including the in-cabin mounts, and it was great. But for less than half the price, I can get the increase in shift response, and not risk vibrations in the cabin. Remember im building a streeter, not a track beast.

Engine Suspension mount is on order; The kit makes some pretty rough vibrations, but a single mount insert has only mild vibrations and a big reduction in wheel hop, if peoples reviews are to be believed. for $30 why not try?

Thermal Intake manifold is on its way; While I know we have some plastic in our manifold, there is still metal, and it needs to be insulated, IMO, especially when I get Kpro and advance to hell..

Dropped to HeatRange7 plugs (from 6); Around Australia, most of our fuel is 'up to 10% ethanol', normally about 5-8% for the 95RON fuel; colder plugs for ANY ethanol mix is well documented, and most stock base models run Range7 plugs without fouling anyway.

And lots of other little things; magnetic sump plugs, Castrol SynTrans fluid, Caltex 5W-30 synth, unplugged 'Variable Power Steering' its its soft all the time, lightened accessory pulleys- leaving the Crank stock (or possibly A2 later), spare wheels removed (replaced with 2 cans of 'puncture repair' and 'tyre slime') and various other junk people on a budget do.

Eventually, kpro and Supercharge; but for now GO BUDGET GOALS GO!
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Old 01-01-2012, 01:42 AM   #2
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

There is a difference between a "budget" build and a "short-cut" build...installing cams without a valve train upgrade or Kpro is an example of the latter.

Is a valvetrain upgrade recommended by the camshaft manufacturer? That is your answer
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Old 01-01-2012, 01:54 AM   #3
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

Thats very true.
But short cuts, often = budget. Its just a matter of determining which shortcuts are safe.

Brian Crower recommends a valvetrain upgrade, but agrees its not 'needed' just a little risky.
Ans the fact that S2 recommend, but dont require, a valvetrain upgrade for cams with even more lift than BC, I thought it was worth an ask.

Normally with cams, comes a want for higher redline. If I keep redline basically stock; Im unsure, hence the questions.

As I said, kpro, (and possibly valvetrain, depending on the outcome of this thread), is certainly on the books. But I want to dyno "the cheapest A3 performance upgrade ever" before I refine it.

Its not just a high-HP goal like most, its a true project for me.

Im one year too young for 'cheap insurance' in my state (late 20's = cheap), so in a year or 2 I'll have a high HP rear wheel drive turbo, without a $2k a year insurance bill. For now, learning, expeirence and budget are key.
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Old 01-01-2012, 02:03 AM   #4
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

do u need an RBC intake manifold ?
cause i got 1 for ya.
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Old 01-01-2012, 02:06 AM   #5
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

Eventually It could be handy; depends on cost :P

The honest goal is the most power\torque for the least $.
As I said I have money, but theres no challenge in just emptying the bank for overkill. You're left broke and just like everyone else who buys on brand, not brains.

Heres another example of why I dont think I'll need valvetrain:
https://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=66643

Im sure everyones familiar with that. 100% stock, bar rockers and cams.
That vtec killer is way WAY more harsh than BC-S2, though I think BC has longer duration?
But as I admitted, I dont know if that affects much. It seems to be lift height that effects spring bind\max RPM.

EDIT: probably interesting to people, is that Sk2 told me via email, the kpro was optional, and their cams could run safely (but not max power) on the stock ECU. and to be repedative, BC-S2 less lift, but more duration than SK2-S1, so hence why I was hoping Stock ECU would do to make a baseline dyno for 'untuned mods'.
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Old 01-01-2012, 05:17 AM   #6
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

Your best bang for the $ would be k-pro & used rsx type-s cams & valve train.

Or k-pro & a used supercharger.
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Old 01-01-2012, 05:39 AM   #7
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

Trying my best to avoid used parts. Simply because it makes it harder for people to 'copy my findings' if the used parts arent available.
But a used supercharger will be the eventual goal, yes.

Also, S cams locked makes a horible streeter. Rough as guts. just look on youtube for the idle! Imagine the poor low end.
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Old 01-01-2012, 06:07 AM   #8
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

my friends K20A3 with type-s pistons, valve train & cams
idles perfect i don't know if it's due to the higher compression, in the other hand my k24a4 with types cams idles a little rough but not badly maybe the lower compression has to do with it.
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Old 01-01-2012, 06:08 AM   #9
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

for the price of BC cams you could buy a k20a2 head, slap that on with kpro and have real vtec. always a option. can get good heads for $500-700 sometimes less depends
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Old 01-01-2012, 09:50 AM   #10
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

The only way you're gonna get decent power for the least amount of money is nitrous. Otherwise, any other choice is gonna require Kpro. And, you're not gonna turn a pig of a motor into a performer on a budget. Probably your cheapest build would be to acquire a k20a2 long block for $1000 and a used Kpro for $1000. With a good tune, that will get you around 200 hp at the wheels (more with bolt ons)...I dont think there is any way you will wring 200 hp at the tires with a k20a3 for less than $2000.
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:00 AM   #11
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

there was someone on here that got close to 200 with a3 vtec killer, but def. agree best thing would be drive car way it is and buy a k20a2, no matter what kpro is only going to help, weather a bone stock a3 or a2 kpro would be in my future.
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Old 01-01-2012, 01:07 PM   #12
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

Notsure how much a used K20a/z or K24 motor is where you are but I would save for one and a KPro...
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Old 01-01-2012, 01:41 PM   #13
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

Used motor where I live is about $6000.
Nitrous is Illegal here.
While I honestly appreciate the oppinions, you dont need to convince me. Kpro will come, and possibly a valvetrain.

Come on guys, this is the k20a forum. Surely you've seen all the RSX cam 'tests' around, where its "Completely untuned, I just added some fuel all around to compensate" and made significant HP.
This is a bad example, as its SLIGHTLY tuned, but still; http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=283031

Someone out there must have the mechanical knowledge to tell me whether the mild BC2 cams can be compensated for by the ECU, and where the agreed valvetrain limits are.

That vtec killer link I posted has an 8000RPM redline, with agressive as fuck cams on stock springs, and he's fine. Wheres the limits?
When its done, it will be done right. But for the projects sake IF its possible, I want it done with the LEAST ammount of $ first.
Everyone has to have a goal right?

Im also finding it odd, tat Skunk2 said valetrain is optional, but recommended, and ECU is the same.
To me that suggests all would be OK, just not optimum.
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Old 01-05-2012, 06:26 PM   #14
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

OK, So I have some interesting results for you.

Skunk2 cams are indeed more agressive than BC2. Skunk2, does NOT require new springs\retainers, while BC suggested I buy their single spring kit, they did agree that its not required and its just a bit of 'added safety since the cams continue to make power at higher revvs'.

If I dont intend to go above the stock 7000RPM, the odds are in my favor.

Also, talking to Brian himself, he agreed that his Stage2 will run fine, and safely on the stock ECU. It should just compensate the AFR's.

Naturally tuning angle and timing and everything else will be better, but my assumptions were correct.

And as someone above said "upgrade recommended by the camshaft manufacturer? That is your answer"

How interesting!
Anyone have some actual help to add? I know how it SHOULD be done, and as i said, kpro will eventually come.

Anyone know the actual agreed limits of the stock valvesprings?
What I find odd is how many people are switching springs without raising RPM much, where the reports of valve float seem to be so few and far between its almost freak accidents.

anyone know the actual limits?
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Old 01-05-2012, 08:13 PM   #15
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Scythe View Post
Come on guys, this is the k20a forum. Surely you've seen all the RSX cam 'tests' around, where its "Completely untuned, I just added some fuel all around to compensate" and made significant HP.
This is a bad example, as its SLIGHTLY tuned, but still; http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=283031
No...I have to say I havent seen alot of half ass builds here on k20a.org...it's funny how you have to post a link to clubrsx to show an example of a half ass build.

Why not ask your question there

If you're gonna polish a turd (aka build a k20a3), you may as well roll up your sleeves and do it properly. Instead, you're going about this in a very half-assed way. That is part of the reason you're not getting much help here.
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:02 PM   #16
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

I understand. But am a little dissapointed also.

Im from an IT background, and even when doing things the 'wrong way' finding a way AROUND that is half the fun.

Ive been involved in cars and the theory\procedures for a long time also, but its the first time ive planned to open the head myself.

One thing I have noticed is a lot of 'assumed fact'. In that, one person has done it one way, so thats accepted as 'the only way'. Hence why I'm pushing so hard.


No one can seem to tell me what the actual limits of the stock springs actually are.

No one can seem to tell me what the max 'adjustment' the ECU can make with 'drop ins' is; because the best way is 'kpro' but, as stated, its not WRONG to do it without, as the cam manufacturer has stated its safe, and will see gains, just not as much.


While I understand engine building is a science, there has to be people interested in different methods. If no one ever tried locking the cams in an A3 head, we'd never have K20A3+K20a2 Frank motors, it took someone to try.

What if, with a set of cheap cams alone, and a stock RPM limit, the A3 owners can make 160HP ATW instead of crank? Or even more! Who's actually tried?

Where is the shame in that?

I respect when building a car for a specific use, track or max HP, there are corners that are risky to cut.

But I thought the oddity of my goal may end up being an interest for others.

That being said, I have springs lined up and Kpro is pending. ALmost finalised a purchase. SO I will do it right in the end.

As i said, this is a project.
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:53 PM   #17
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Scythe View Post
I understand. But am a little dissapointed also.

Im from an IT background, and even when doing things the 'wrong way' finding a way AROUND that is half the fun.

Ive been involved in cars and the theory\procedures for a long time also, but its the first time ive planned to open the head myself.

One thing I have noticed is a lot of 'assumed fact'. In that, one person has done it one way, so thats accepted as 'the only way'. Hence why I'm pushing so hard.


No one can seem to tell me what the actual limits of the stock springs actually are.

No one can seem to tell me what the max 'adjustment' the ECU can make with 'drop ins' is; because the best way is 'kpro' but, as stated, its not WRONG to do it without, as the cam manufacturer has stated its safe, and will see gains, just not as much.


While I understand engine building is a science, there has to be people interested in different methods. If no one ever tried locking the cams in an A3 head, we'd never have K20A3+K20a2 Frank motors, it took someone to try.

What if, with a set of cheap cams alone, and a stock RPM limit, the A3 owners can make 160HP ATW instead of crank? Or even more! Who's actually tried?

Where is the shame in that?

I respect when building a car for a specific use, track or max HP, there are corners that are risky to cut.

But I thought the oddity of my goal may end up being an interest for others.

That being said, I have springs lined up and Kpro is pending. ALmost finalised a purchase. SO I will do it right in the end.

As i said, this is a project.
My base model buddy here in az had his engine dyno tuned after a few simple bolt-ons.

They included:
2002 (I believe, somewhere between 02-04) k20a3, 50,000 or so miles at time of tune.
PRB (type-s) Intake manifold and Throttle Body.
Strupp racing header.
2.5" exhaust into (can't remember what brand right now) muffler.
Injen or similar cold air intake.
And I believe hondata thermal gaskets for both the tb and im.
Tuned on hondata kpro w/ 91octane.
Stock a3 trans

On Locash racing's dyna pack dynamometer, he made 167whp @ 7400ish, and 150wtq @ I can't remember. Vtec @ 2,300. Redlines @ 7700

I don't know what your altitude is, but here in Phoenix, AZ, we're roughly 1,200ft above sea level.
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:01 PM   #18
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

The a3's have some potential, but I am far from satisfied with mine, even in a chassis that weighs 2200lbs with me in it.


I had bought a base model rsx, and less than a month after buying it, rolled it into a mountain. Pulled the engine out, got a budget swap header, my own prb intake mani, and k&n short ram w/ heat shield, and put it in my p.o.s. eg hatch shell. He graciously gave me his tune, and my car scoots pretty well for an a3 with also stock base 5spd. Will have 1/4 mile times by the end of the month.

With my tax return this year, I'm going to be getting a k20z3 transmission. I'll more than likely see the most advantageous driving gains with swapping the trans, compared too some cams or a head swap, without changing the compression or adding boost.

I am, however, extremely tempted to put these z3 cams I have laying here in my a3, to gain a considerable amount more power in the top end. Low-mid is going to suck, and seeing as this is currently the daily, I'm going to put swapping a z3 trans in higher priority.
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:18 PM   #19
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

Sorry to make 3 posts, but I felt it was easier this way to organize my thoughts. Plus, I felt like post whoring a little bit tonight. Anyways.



I'm all for your enthusiasm with theory, or trying to figure out why since this person said this happned one time with his given conditions, that it wrote the book for anything at all related. Kinda sucks, but it's nice when you can prove otherwise.

Some myths I've heard, but have never seen proof of:

A k20a2's oil pump cavitates @ like 8,600 or whatever it is. Basically not safe to rev higher than like 8600, or something close to that. I hear that all the time, but have personally shifted 3 different stock a2 blocks above 9,000 rpm, and one closer to 9,300. Now I only drove those a bit, but the owners beat the shit out of those engines for months before selling them in still good condition. I feel like the oil pump has to be working, right?


Can't use a stock fuel rail when kswapping into eg/dc/ek etc chassis due to returnless systems, fpr in tank, etc. See it all over the internet, and a bunch of people in town said it too. But I was also on a budget, so I tried. Before attempting this myself, I looked up a few different builds on here and other places where people had done it. A few utilized the stock quick-disconnect setups. I did something slightly different, but it's been working great.

There are more, but can't remember at the moment.

Keep working on doing what you're doing. If you fail, at least you tried, and now you know. If you don't, well enjoy your base model and try not to roll it.




Oh and p.s.
I didn't really point it out, but his redline is 7,700 and his engine sees 7500+ daily, and I bounce mine @ 7,400 all the time by accident since I'm not presently gifted with a tach. Stock valvesprings on the a3 seem to be able to handle 7,500+ no problem, but the added lift and duration of the BC cams is only going to put more stress on them. You may want to take a, "better safe than sorry" approach when it could possible cause catastrophic failure....
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:22 PM   #20
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Default Re: k20a3 - Goal: Most budget build ever

THank you for that! I knew someone had to think like me.
Just because one person did it, doesnt make it gospel. It just means people who are scared cling to it.


I'll be setting my rev limiter at 7200RPM when I eventually get KPRO; simply because the stock 6800 is before the redline and I bounce accidentally sometimes. I dont plan to actually 'push it harder' just stop it bouncing, because I know how bad that is for a car.

It looks like, If i'm going to do this, I'll go KPRO and Cams. Not quite as 'sub $500' as it was looking before, but at least I get to play with tuning.

I need to sort out my 'rev bounce' in first and second before I start pulling apart the head. Lets hope its the IACV or TPS and nothing more.
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