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Old 10-26-2008, 04:19 PM   #41
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

im in for some results.... some really good info for the consumer and the producer here... up for u
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Old 10-26-2008, 06:39 PM   #42
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

Chunky is the man. In for ze buildup. Sorry to hear about the blowup though bro, tough luck on that one.
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:31 PM   #43
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

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Chunky is the man. In for ze buildup. Sorry to hear about the blowup though bro, tough luck on that one.


X2 Chunky is the man... nice guy in person.. very unbiased
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Old 10-27-2008, 05:52 AM   #44
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

Chunky' x234796234823740289348
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Old 10-31-2008, 10:23 AM   #45
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

So Raz whats the word? Got the block back and going to put it together this weekend?

I've got some work to do on my bimmer Saturday, but call me if you get her back up and running.
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:35 AM   #46
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

Chunky do they come fully coated like that from Supertech. Never really had anybody order those.
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Old 10-31-2008, 04:03 PM   #47
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

yes sir they come fully coated from supertech
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Old 11-01-2008, 07:09 AM   #48
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

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So Raz whats the word? Got the block back and going to put it together this weekend?

I've got some work to do on my bimmer Saturday, but call me if you get her back up and running.
Still waiting on the block. I'll probably work on either the trans or head later on today. Trans gets all new bearings, type-r LSD, 5.06 final, TSX 6th. Head needs a cleanup job on cylinder #3.

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Chunky do they come fully coated like that from Supertech. Never really had anybody order those.
Yep, that's how they look right out of the box. For the money, they appear to be nice pistons. We'll see how they hold up long term on a daily driven motor.
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Old 11-01-2008, 10:12 AM   #49
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

I have never had an issue with ceramic coated pistons. They do get up to temp but just slightly longer than the non coated ones do.

And yes the cylinders do need to be machined and honed a little bit closer to the tight side as the coated piston doesnt see the temp spikes, so it's size stays a little more uniform.

But I do not use and do not recommend oil shed films on the pistons if you expect any longeviety out of them, especially if there are no oil squirters installed. Leave that for the dedicated 1320' and dyno queen engines looking to get the max at the cost of longeviety.
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Old 11-01-2008, 07:21 PM   #50
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

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I have never had an issue with ceramic coated pistons. They do get up to temp but just slightly longer than the non coated ones do.

And yes the cylinders do need to be machined and honed a little bit closer to the tight side as the coated piston doesnt see the temp spikes, so it's size stays a little more uniform.

But I do not use and do not recommend oil shed films on the pistons if you expect any longeviety out of them, especially if there are no oil squirters installed. Leave that for the dedicated 1320' and dyno queen engines looking to get the max at the cost of longeviety.
Yeah, I'll definitely be going with a tighter piston to wall on coated forged pistons in the future.

Regarding the oil shedding coating on the piston's underside, I'm not sure how that could have affected longevity since that's a non-wear area of the piston. Without squirters, maybe a slight rise in piston temp, coated vs uncoateda, but I can't see how that would have a big impact on reliability.
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Old 11-07-2008, 07:45 PM   #51
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

Got the block back today. Things should start happening quickly now.
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Old 11-07-2008, 10:10 PM   #52
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

are you going to be in GA for X-mas time? I fly in the 17th of December.
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Old 11-08-2008, 08:04 AM   #53
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

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are you going to be in GA for X-mas time? I fly in the 17th of December.
Yep yep. Hit me up when you're in town.
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Old 11-08-2008, 11:14 AM   #54
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

Anyone have input on ring gap placement?

Most aftermarket piston makers advise putting the top & second ring gap on opposing thrust faces of the piston. The Helms manual states explicitly that ring gaps should NOT co-incide with a thrust face or wrist pin centerline.

When I installed the CP pistons, I used the ring gap placement specified in the Helms manual because it would seem to make more sense not to have a ring gap on a thrust face of the piston. Right now I'm leaning towards using the Helms manual specification again although the supertech, like the cp, spec sheet says to put the ring gaps on opposing thrust faces of the piston.
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Old 11-08-2008, 04:23 PM   #55
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

Felt like doing some math today.

4032 alloy coefficient of thermal expansion: 21 (um/(m*C))
2618 alloy coefficient of thermal expansion: 24 (um/(m*C))
Ductile iron coefficient of thermal expansion: 14.7(um/(m*C))

So with those numbers, I wanted to calculate out what the operating piston to wall would be for a given cold piston to wall. These numbers are based on an 87mm build that has an average operating temp of 100C (212F). Numbers would be different for an 86mm build etc. I picked some common piston to wall numbers that I've seen. I had this motor set to 0.0028" with the 4032 pistons and my last motor set to 0.0036" with the 2618 pistons.

4032 @ 0.0028" piston to wall: 0.03mm or 0.0011"
4032 @ 0.0039" piston to wall: 0.058mm or 0.0022"

2618 @ 0.0033" piston to wall: 0.023mm or 0.0009"
2618 @ 0.0036" piston to wall: 0.031mm or 0.0012"
2618 @ 0.0039" piston to wall: 0.039mm or 0.0015"

For comparison, on an OEM motor, the piston to wall is spec'd between 0.0008" and 0.0016". There were way too many variants of cast aluminum for me to even hope to estimate what kind of hot piston to wall OEM motors run. I suppose I could take an OEM piston, and calculate the CTE myself, but not tonight. For now, I'll just assume that a reasonable minimum hot piston to wall to aim for is 0.001". On my last motor, I believe the ceramic coating actually resulted in the piston running even cooler, so my hot clearance would have been greater than 0.0012". On this motor, without any piston top coatings, I'd expect the hot piston to wall to be pretty close to the calculated number. It shows clearly that the supertech spec sheet is way too loose for a street driven n/a build. Even for a basic boosted build, I'd wager it's too much unless you've got a ridiculously thick oil film.

So if the average operating temp is taken to be 125C (257F), here's how things change up.

4032 @ 0.0028" piston to wall: 0.016mm or 0.0006"
4032 @ 0.0032" piston to wall: 0.027mm or 0.0010"
4032 @ 0.0039" piston to wall: 0.058mm or 0.0017"

2618 @ 0.0033" piston to wall: piston diameter would exceed bore diameter
2618 @ 0.0036" piston to wall: 0.011mm or 0.0004"
2618 @ 0.0039" piston to wall: 0.018mm or 0.0007"
2618 @ 0.0042" piston to wall: 0.026mm or 0.0010"

As you can see, even on a hot running motor, a piston to wall of 0.0039 would be on the loose end of things with a 4032 alloy piston. On a 2618 piston, a cold clearance of 0.0040"+ is expected on a boosted build. So it appears that the numbers align with what is observed in reality. As such, if I were using the supertech pistons on a boosted/nitroused motor, I'd aim for a 0.0032" piston to wall.

I got the CTEs from www.matweb.com. I did this all in MathCAD. If any of you want the worksheet, I can send it. Otherwise here's a screenshot.

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Old 11-08-2008, 05:31 PM   #56
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

So the supertech specs are too loose for a street build motor, how do you think they would stack up for a track motor? Don't you typically go looser for a track build?
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Old 11-08-2008, 06:15 PM   #57
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

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So the supertech specs are too loose for a street build motor, how do you think they would stack up for a track motor? Don't you typically go looser for a track build?
Well, it depends somewhat on how hot you expect things to get. Bearing in mind that valve seats and guides start to get loose around 150C (302F), let's run some numbers at that temp.

If the pistons were installed with a 0.0039" piston to wall, the hot piston to wall would be 0.031mm or 0.0012". Which is still a bit over the 0.001" that seems to be the number that most other piston makers' clearance recommendations seem to result in. A cold clearance of 0.0037" would be a more appropriate number, yielding a hot clearance of 0.0010". I can't see any reason to set an n/a motor to the 0.0039" that supertech has specified. They've said some things about how their pistons expand in a funny way, but the expansion of a metal is a ratio of the change in diameter, period. Doesn't matter if the item is solid or hollow or has varying diameters. Just use the widest point on the piston to calculate for the point of minimum clearance.

When clearances get much above 0.001", there is wiggle room between parts that can be detected by hand. Unless you are running molasses for engine oil, I'm not sure that you need more clearance unless your machine shop can't produce a straight bore.

Of course, the other thing I've realized while running these numbers is that your piston to wall will also vary based on the material used for the sleeves. If you're using a steel, nikasil coated aluminum, or cast iron block, you're going to get different numbers than with ductile iron.

Also, keep in mind that the numbers I've presented here are not ultra-exact. It's best to leave yourself with a margin of error. You COULD have a running engine with 0.0005" piston to wall when hot, but you would need very precise information about the expansion properties of the pistons and cylinders, oil film thickness, and temperature as well as a killer machine shop. I just wanted to get a ballpark idea of how the hot clearances look with 4032 vs 2618 pistons for varying piston to wall clearances.

The actual hot clearance that you aim for depends mostly on the oil properties I'd think. I just used 0.001" as a target since it seemed to be the ballpark number that resulted when most piston maker recommendations were used. I wanted to get some kind of reassurance that my motor wouldn't seize up under normal operation with the tighter piston to wall I'm aiming for. The numbers say I should be good.
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Old 11-08-2008, 07:36 PM   #58
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

chunky PM me your Phone Number
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Old 11-08-2008, 09:08 PM   #59
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

mines are set to 0.0040" you could hear the piston slap but it's not a daily driver but i was aware that it would happen. i initially was going to go between 0.0032" to 0.0036" for nitrous but I'll be running too big of a shot soon so decided to go with the 0.0040" piston to wall clearance just to be on the safe side due to the way they & i quote "expand more on one side due to their design". i e-mailed supertech about their data sheet before sending the block to the machine shop about having too loose clearances also about thermal expansion with E85 since it burns about 200*F colder than 93 octane pump gas & they replied back with this info:

A wall clearance of 0.004 it is OK but it will produce slapping noise. In racing slapping noise does not matter but it does if you are doing street performance. So this clearance can be reduced to 0.0028” if you do a regular engine “break-in” of around 600-800 miles. For Nitrous you need to add 0.0004-0.0008”. You reduce this clearance increase considerable to 0.0002-0.0004 if you will use an alcohol that produce a cool combustion.

These NA pistons have been calculated for 500 HP.

Best regards
Martin
Supertech Performance Inc.

when i spray the big shot I'll see if the piston expand enough for the piston slap to go away, if it doesn't then I'll use a tighter piston to wall clearance on the next engine which i have another set of supertech pistons waiting for it but with this engine I wanted to be on the safe side since there is not much info out there about this pistons. plus this car is still open header so i can't hear them inside the car .

the only info i know is from a member here with user name PacDawg he has them making close to 260WHP allmotor & his piston to wall clearance is set to 0.0039" and he hates the piston slap since he has a quiet daily driver but so far he's been daily driving with this pistons & no issues. his rsx type-s is doing good times with them 12.582 @ 107.45 mph for being a heavy car with stock type-s transmission non lsd.

i think they are good quality piston especially for the price but supertech needs to update their data sheet so people that plan on daily driving with them don't end up with piston slap. thank you for sharing this data it is very useful information .
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Old 11-08-2008, 10:05 PM   #60
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Default Re: Project Phoenix rising - yep, time to rebuild again.

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mines are set to 0.0040" you could hear the piston slap but it's not a daily driver but i was aware that it would happen. i initially was going to go between 0.0032" to 0.0036" for nitrous but I'll be running too big of a shot soon so decided to go with the 0.0040" piston to wall clearance just to be on the safe side due to the way they & i quote "expand more on one side due to their design". i e-mailed supertech about their data sheet before sending the block to the machine shop about having too loose clearances also about thermal expansion with E85 since it burns about 200*F colder than 93 octane pump gas & they replied back with this info:

A wall clearance of 0.004 it is OK but it will produce slapping noise. In racing slapping noise does not matter but it does if you are doing street performance. So this clearance can be reduced to 0.0028” if you do a regular engine “break-in” of around 600-800 miles. For Nitrous you need to add 0.0004-0.0008”. You reduce this clearance increase considerable to 0.0002-0.0004 if you will use an alcohol that produce a cool combustion.

These NA pistons have been calculated for 500 HP.

Best regards
Martin
Supertech Performance Inc.

when i spray the big shot I'll see if the piston expand enough for the piston slap to go away, if it doesn't then I'll use a tighter piston to wall clearance on the next engine which i have another set of supertech pistons waiting for it but with this engine I wanted to be on the safe side since there is not much info out there about this pistons. plus this car is still open header so i can't hear them inside the car .

the only info i know is from a member here with user name PacDawg he has them making close to 260WHP allmotor & his piston to wall clearance is set to 0.0039" and he hates the piston slap since he has a quiet daily driver but so far he's been daily driving with this pistons & no issues. his rsx type-s is doing good times with them 12.582 @ 107.45 mph for being a heavy car with stock type-s transmission non lsd.

i think they are good quality piston especially for the price but supertech needs to update their data sheet so people that plan on daily driving with them don't end up with piston slap. thank you for sharing this data it is very useful information .
Yeah, I saw your post in pacdawg's thread.

Modern pistons are not perfectly circular. They expand more along their thrust faces as there is more mass along that direction. The tops of pistons are also smaller in diameter as there is more mass in the piston crown. This is not uncommon at all. However, if you consider a particular axis of the piston, the expansion will be predictable using a simple linear approximation. Typically the gauge point of the piston should be the diameter you use for such approximations as that will be the point of greatest width when the piston gets hot. You could heat a piston up in the oven to whatever temp range you're expecting and then measure for the widest point. Then measure the block in a similar fashion. Hot honing blocks is how the big money race teams do it actually. They run piston to wall clearances that are so tight and so precise that the slight change in shape as the parts cools seizes the motor. They can't start it until they pump hot oil & coolant through the motor first.

At any rate, piston slap on an engine that's up to temp is not acceptable. It will affect the long term reliability of the piston and probably leaves some power on the table as well. I think the reason why supertech has not updated their spec sheet is b/c the pistons are outsourced. 0.0039" would seem to be the max clearance you could possibly need on these pistons. That's at temps that would cause valve seats and guides to start wiggling around. My guess is that your motor will be fine with the big shot. I think with nitrous a clearance of 0.0032" would be close to ideal on a gas burning motor. As long as your machine shop can meet the bore spec, you sould be fine. Supertech most likely has really conservative piston to wall specs so that people are less likely to have seized up motors even if the bore is out of whack. I mean, think about it. How can they suggest a piston to wall without asking what kind of material your cylinders are made of and the quality of your cooling system first? They're obviously handing out very generic numbers. That why the expertise of a seasoned engine builder costs $$$. ;)
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