Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car - Page 3 - K20A.org .:. The K Series Source . Honda / Acura K20a k24a Engine Forum
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Old 05-31-2005, 10:38 AM   #41
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car

Nikos,

I understand you point, and (as I have already said) I can see the argument for carrying on with the 'accepted' values.

That said, I cannot for the life of me understand *why* when so much value is placed in numbers, NOBODY is prepared to work on REAL numbers.

what would be so bad about quoting both? this would serve two jobs, the first to give the number people expect (and to provide the comparison with brand XYZ) and then a *real* certified engine dyno figures (and thus being about to take the high ground with brand XYZ not doing the same).

To my mind this would be the *honest* approach, nobody could then throw stones or critisise you either way.

Simon

PS. this was not actually my beef with this thread, but hey, what the hell....
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Old 05-31-2005, 12:52 PM   #42
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag C

The problem is that the consumers are not as knowledgeable about different types of dynos as you, so throwing out so many different #s would just confuse them. I work with an engine dyno (Dyno-mite) and 95% of people I mention it to don't even know what it is. These are consumers who buy parts and mods for their cars. When you say dyno to them that means dynojet. The only thing you would get from publicizing engine dyno #s is a bunch of people bashing you saying "no way you made that much hp" or "who cares, what does it make to the wheels?"

go look on Honda-Tech and you will see that whenever anyone posts a graph from a mustang or dynapack there are immediately 10 posts demanding dynojet #s. Correctly or not, people believe that since they already know a lot of dynojet #s they can compare between them. Since no one knows any engine dyno #s they have nothing to compare to, except the manufacturer's claimed bhp which doesn't mean anything to most of them anyway.
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Old 05-31-2005, 01:21 PM   #43
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car

so the fact that *all* manufacturers of engines use *real* engine dyno sourced numbers then is just bull then?

what is it with you lot? words fail me...

had *anybody* *ever* seen a calibratio certificate for a dynajet/etc?

when you buy petrol, do you not care if the 10 gallons you paid for is only 8?

I know your gallons are smaller than ours, maybee I should just accept that your Bhp units are smaller than our

PS. look Here for a handy calculator
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Old 05-31-2005, 06:23 PM   #44
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car

thanks!!!!
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Old 05-31-2005, 06:46 PM   #45
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuffers
so the fact that *all* manufacturers of engines use *real* engine dyno sourced numbers then is just bull then?

what is it with you lot? words fail me...

had *anybody* *ever* seen a calibratio certificate for a dynajet/etc?

when you buy petrol, do you not care if the 10 gallons you paid for is only 8?

I know your gallons are smaller than ours, maybee I should just accept that your Bhp units are smaller than our
Its like trying to convince us americans to use the Metric system. LOL IT AIENT HAPPENING!
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Old 05-31-2005, 09:35 PM   #46
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag C

Quote:
Originally Posted by 909edge
The problem is that the consumers are not as knowledgeable about different types of dynos as you, so throwing out so many different #s would just confuse them. I work with an engine dyno (Dyno-mite) and 95% of people I mention it to don't even know what it is. These are consumers who buy parts and mods for their cars. When you say dyno to them that means dynojet. The only thing you would get from publicizing engine dyno #s is a bunch of people bashing you saying "no way you made that much hp" or "who cares, what does it make to the wheels?"

go look on Honda-Tech and you will see that whenever anyone posts a graph from a mustang or dynapack there are immediately 10 posts demanding dynojet #s. Correctly or not, people believe that since they already know a lot of dynojet #s they can compare between them. Since no one knows any engine dyno #s they have nothing to compare to, except the manufacturer's claimed bhp which doesn't mean anything to most of them anyway.

What type of mind frame is this? im offended as a consumeR, i DO know what different dynos are and you implying that i DONT makes me very frustrated.

Plus this is NOT honda tech.

*Side note dont resposnd to anything i mentioned here, this is my final word on this subject.
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Old 05-31-2005, 11:25 PM   #47
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soda Popinski
Its like trying to convince us americans to use the Metric system. LOL IT AIENT HAPPENING!
err - you really are missing the point arn't you?

I am English, as in we invented the imperial measument system, as in we still use miles/gallons/etc.

if you can't even differentiate between England and France/Germany/etc, then I guess this explains a lot

on a more serious note, do you *want* to be treated like some kind of gullable muppet customer then??
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Old 06-01-2005, 04:47 AM   #48
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuffers
on a more serious note, do you *want* to be treated like some kind of gullable muppet customer then??
I haven't minded yet...

Over here Dyno Jets are just the industry standard. Big numbers are cool to claim but at the end of the day your hp figures aren't winning any races, it's the whole car that does it. So while all some care about is the dyno #'s, others are much more interested at what the product can really do on the track. A lot of thjese dyno post are just to give a general idea to the average consumer as to what they can expect after purchasing any product.

In my eyes dyno's are a method of tuning, if i was really trying to show off some respectable numbers I probably would use a engine dyno to do it...
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Old 06-02-2005, 12:42 PM   #49
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car

Great Job Guys. Ill have some 52mm #'s soon as well. Can somone post a close up pic of their Water pump housing? Im having trouble making mine fit the throttle linkage. Thanks guys
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Old 06-02-2005, 05:39 PM   #50
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car

Hey EDO are there any dynos with the k2 cams in a stock k20r?
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Old 06-02-2005, 06:28 PM   #51
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuffers
err - you really are missing the point arn't you?

I am English, as in we invented the imperial measument system, as in we still use miles/gallons/etc.

if you can't even differentiate between England and France/Germany/etc, then I guess this explains a lot

on a more serious note, do you *want* to be treated like some kind of gullable muppet customer then??
Sorry pardon my ignorance. But like Jon said, over here dynojets are the industry standard. Thats just how it is. Love it hate it but leave it alone.
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Old 06-02-2005, 08:39 PM   #52
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car

Quote:
Originally Posted by NAturalDC2
Hey EDO are there any dynos with the k2 cams in a stock k20r?
Not yet. There's a set in Okinawa in a DC5, but he's not up and running at the moment.

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Old 06-03-2005, 06:20 AM   #53
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuffers
All a bit OTT on the marketing front this isn't it?

whilst I have no problem if people want to post what they have achived and how etc. this thread really summs it up for me as the board becoming nothing more than a sales and maketing outlet for said companies.

to my mind this detracts from the board, as it will soon become the domain of a small number of very pro-active companies, and thus all objectivaty goes out the window.


back to the subject, I am still waiting for somebody to post up the results of an engine on a *real* dyno, using a RR/Dynapack/etc is just not good enough if you are selling stuff like this, as has been well covered (both here and on other boards) these numbers can vary wildly to the point of being useless.

Dyno's are NOT that expencive and I would consider they are essential for any real development work.

This is what one looks like:
I think this is REAL giving us ALL some GOOD info. on what's going on with all the products on the car along with Dyno pulls.
Marketing? look at the one about hayward drag only itb with the poster saying he is building a race motor with about 300hp and asking lance on this board about running 1000cc injectors as opposed to him calling him or emailing him, yea this guy knows what he's doing, this guy isn't building a race motor or a car at all he is just posting back and forth to lance so they can keep there thread alive.
1000cc injectors on a 300hp motor what a laugh....
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK 2FASTXEG
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Old 06-03-2005, 09:36 AM   #54
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuffers
this thread really summs it up for me as the board becoming nothing more than a sales and maketing outlet for said companies.
Sorry you feel that way....

For the others of us on this board the advantage of being able to speak to companies through sites like these are generally helpful. Getting info straight from the horses mouth is much better in my eyes than chatting with some customer servive rep over the phone.

Ron, Brian G. and Brian C and not to forget Will. are always going to give you straight talk and can usually be reached by phone. As a business man myself its tough to talk to "X" amount of people per day knowing that maybe 2% are actually going to act on what they called for.

Information obtained over the internet or through catalogs is biased generally, and Im sure that vendors on this board are biased about there products as well but Ive been told by most of the names above what products in there own line to stay away from. Thats good info.

So thanks Ron, Keep up the good work!
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Old 06-03-2005, 10:45 AM   #55
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car

you seem to have missed the point I was trying to make....

in terms of actual quantifiable, hard info, what have we got here?

I have no problem with suppliers being on BBS's to answer questions or tell us about new stuff, I just think that ramming it home with multiple posts again and again is a little OTT.

as a side issue, I really would like to see a break from bullshite numbers and some real hard data to back up the claims made for these products.

ie. it would be good to see a stock engine on an engine dyno, benchmarked, then fitted with XYZ's product and re-benchmarked in a controled environment with calibration data to back this all up with, then potential customers could get to see *exactly* what each product offers.

now, what is so wrong with this idea?
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Old 06-03-2005, 10:56 AM   #56
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuffers
you seem to have missed the point I was trying to make....
haha, yeah no I really didnt but its obvious that one of us is oblivious to the whats going on.

Lets agree to disagree I guess.

BTW Nothing wrong with what your saying but everything can be skewed to fit what the manufacturer wants it to.
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Old 06-03-2005, 10:57 AM   #57
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuffers

ie. it would be good to see a stock engine on an engine dyno, benchmarked, then fitted with XYZ's product and re-benchmarked in a controled environment with calibration data to back this all up with, then potential customers could get to see *exactly* what each product offers.

now, what is so wrong with this idea?
Ok, since I don't know much about the water break engine dyno you are talking about... let me ask

In order to benchmark a stock k20a R for example, you would use a header with no exhaust I assume. What about the ECU? Can you hook up hondata K pro to it? Does ECU even play a role? Can you tune the motor on that dyno? Thanks, I just do not know how these dynos work. All I see is a bunch of cables in the pics.
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Old 06-03-2005, 11:14 AM   #58
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car

as it happends, that pic is not a water braked dyno, it's a eddie current one (that's water cooled).

in simplistic terms, an enigne dyno is just a variable load with some form of control system.

in practice, you can do what you like with them, ie. you can run the full cars exhaust system from header to tail of you want, you can run whatever ECU you want, the difference is that with a good dyno cell, you have absolute control over *all* parameters, from temp control (air/water/oil) to engine load/speed/rate of change/etc.

you just can't do this stuff with chassis dyno's, like doing cold start work, with an engine dyno cell you can chill the engine down to -10C, then work on cold start settings etc, or heat the intake air up to work on temp corrections, etc etc etc.

there are several types of load brake, the cheaper ones are water brake, but these have problems with low speed loads and high speed transient changes.
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Old 06-03-2005, 11:17 AM   #59
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car

have you benchmarked a stock k20a R with PRC stock ECU? What was the result? Any dyno plots?

Also what is the price for one?
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Old 06-03-2005, 11:26 AM   #60
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Default Re: Intrinsic Performance Solutions (IPS) Cams/ITB Dyno Video(9700 RPMs)OverRev Mag Car

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikos
have you benchmarked a stock k20a R with PRC stock ECU? What was the result? Any dyno plots?

Also what is the price for one?

no, *I* do not have one, we have been renting time on one to do some development work, mostly related to ECU work and ITB's. plan is to benchmark a stock K20A2 next, been somewhat tied up trying to get my race car engine out first (season is marching on!).

cost wise, the basic hardware is cheap (like ~20K get's you a good quality 400-500Bhp brake. the expencive part is the control systems and environmental stuff, that said, 50K will get you a very good setup.

when we have benchmarked a stock engine, I will post up the plots, and will put these against stock mapping and K-Pro mapps (in you have one you want us to try and it is applicable to a stock K20A2 then by all means let me have it and I will get it run up).
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