update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams - Page 3 - K20A.org .:. The K Series Source . Honda / Acura K20a k24a Engine Forum
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Old 06-12-2007, 09:42 AM   #41
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

damn for whatever reason i can't find the old KME dyno chart...oh well
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Old 06-12-2007, 10:51 AM   #42
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikos

Hytech makes also good cams, but I don't think Skunk2 cares to compare their stuff with Hytech.
wouldn't be too hard - they use the same engine dyno I believe j/k

directed to the guys at skunk2 I appreciate the explanation of the exh centerline - helps explain why further advance on int doesn't make power BUT - have you been able to test Hondata's theory that retarding the exhaust cam, by means of adj exh cam gea,r actually decreases the intake VTC setting by the same # of degrees. I understand YOUR cams don't make more power - if the VTC is further advanced

for those of you who need further explanation... if you retard the exh cam 5 degrees & have vtc set at 45 its really 40vtc in REALITY but all ECU readings think its at 45. this COULD be tested & proven by modifying the cam plate (sensor - wheel) on the end of the exh cam - & moving it the 5 degrees (or however many degrees exh cam is retarded)

also directed to guys @ skunk2 - have your techs ever seen a cam (TDC) sensor not work properly & NOT throw a code - falsely reading/changing VTC?
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Old 06-12-2007, 02:42 PM   #43
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchueString Racing
I do not want to bring up that drama from before, but if S2 cams needs an adjustable exhaust cam gear, I'm dumbfounded as to why they didn't ship one with the Stage 2 cams used in that test. Whoever made, or should I say didn't make that decision, should've been fired. That crap caused a lot of negative publicity for S2.
To clarify, an adjustable cam gear was not to be used in the original test as we more or less wanted to see "drop in" gains. In addition to that, the time required to tune & document the changes with an adjustable cam gear would have made it all but impossible to do both dyno tests on the same day. Skunk2 was confident in their product as was IPS. I wouldn't say that either company got any negative publicity from that test if people are STILL debating which cam is the one to buy. ;)

Anyhow, I now have a skunk2 exhaust cam gear installed in my motor along with supertech valves. I have the exhaust cam gear retarded -2.5 marks (which is -5 crank degrees). The midrange is much improved with just some basic street tuning. The car is a completely different animal in the midrange. Tony has advised me to go a full -5 marks to achieve max benefit. -5 marks = 10 crank degrees. The native skunk2 centerline is 119deg. Retarding the cam gear fully takes it to 109. Then you hope that your block/head/sprockets are lined up such that you end up with a little extra retard to hit the sweet spot. I will be degreeing the cams in properly before too long and hitting the dyno again. This won't really be relevant to the initial test since the engine setup has changed (different valves, and exhaust cam gear added), but it will give you guys an idea of why it's silly to buy the skunk2 cams without their cam gear.
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Old 06-12-2007, 03:26 PM   #44
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

Please keep us informed, I want to see what the Cam Gear and other small changes did for you.
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Old 06-12-2007, 03:29 PM   #45
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

I dont get it, why not just shift the lobe back 5 degrees on the freakin cam? Why the need for the cam gears?
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Old 06-12-2007, 08:41 PM   #46
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by AP1
I dont get it, why not just shift the lobe back 5 degrees on the freakin cam? Why the need for the cam gears?
Actually its easier than that. all you have to do is change the location of the dowel pin by 4-5 degrees. Then everything would be lined up from the get go assuming you have a motor that is unmilled. For every .0174 inch you mill or resurface it only changes timing by 1 degree. (SIN COS TAN remember geometry class?)

As a manufacturer in the business of selling parts its a smart business move to have parts that require other support parts inorder to work to their maximum. Other wise the adjustable exhaust cam gear would only be needed if the surface of the block or head was milled enough to take the cams out of the "sweet spot".

Also there is the factor of saftey, but it seems to be clear that its not really an issue for the popular stage 1 and 2 cams currently offered. But it does make a great excuse.
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Old 06-12-2007, 08:49 PM   #47
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6spd_EK
wouldn't be too hard - they use the same engine dyno I believe j/k

directed to the guys at skunk2 I appreciate the explanation of the exh centerline - helps explain why further advance on int doesn't make power BUT - have you been able to test Hondata's theory that retarding the exhaust cam, by means of adj exh cam gea,r actually decreases the intake VTC setting by the same # of degrees. I understand YOUR cams don't make more power - if the VTC is further advanced

for those of you who need further explanation... if you retard the exh cam 5 degrees & have vtc set at 45 its really 40vtc in REALITY but all ECU readings think its at 45. this COULD be tested & proven by modifying the cam plate (sensor - wheel) on the end of the exh cam - & moving it the 5 degrees (or however many degrees exh cam is retarded)

also directed to guys @ skunk2 - have your techs ever seen a cam (TDC) sensor not work properly & NOT throw a code - falsely reading/changing VTC?
I guess it all depends on the software being used...

According to AEM the sensor on the exhaust cam does nothing but sync the crank and cams. The sensor on the VTC is completely stand alone and is not impacted by the position of the exhaust cam. It does not look for a signal from the exhaust cam gear sensor and could care less where the cam is or when the valves open.

According to Hondata the sensor on the exhaust cam is used (initially) to sync the crank and cams but shortly after sync is achieved the system goes into closed-loop and the intake cam uses the exhaust cam to keep things in check. It gets pretty technical... and it should be being they used some of Honda's great engineering (great idea) but the short story is, yes. The position of the exhaust cam gear does end up affecting the position of the intake cam. It would be as easy as entering the degree's lost to the exhaust cam gear in the VTC Table an calling that the Base.
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Old 06-12-2007, 09:50 PM   #48
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

i am curious to see just how big of a difference the exhaust cam gear is when used with the skunk2 stg2s vs just dropping them in. i don't remember if people are using exhaust cams with the blueprints either. i wonder if their numbers increase well with an exhaust cam or if it's more based off the k2s and already in the cam.
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Old 06-13-2007, 04:10 AM   #49
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by jones83
i am curious to see just how big of a difference the exhaust cam gear is when used with the skunk2 stg2s vs just dropping them in.
I take it you missed the engine dyno graph Tony (Skunk2TS)posted on page 2????

ek24monster - thanks for the reply on the cam sync'ing depending on the software used - very interesting
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Old 06-13-2007, 05:44 AM   #50
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skunk2TS
I think between 104-107 is generally the sweet spot, and the exhaust centerline is not as sensitive as the intake once setup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skunk2TS

To be clear, im not trying to bash or anything, just want to make sure you're aware of why the k2's wont make any more power with an exhaust cam gear retarded. The centerline is already at 104.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chunky`
Tony has advised me to go a full -5 marks to achieve max benefit. -5 marks = 10 crank degrees. The native skunk2 centerline is 119deg. Retarding the cam gear fully takes it to 109. Then you hope that your block/head/sprockets are lined up such that you end up with a little extra retard to hit the sweet spot.

After reading these statements, I am really curious about what Skunk2 was thinking when designing these cam centerlines. With the Skunk2 cam gear, you CANNOT reach anything less than 109… unless you bore out the keyway or relocate the pin like omniman said.

This whole thread has shed new light why IPS k2 were so ahead of the competition 3+ years ago and why they were killing other cams in the midrange. Most companies concentrated on big lobes and simply ignored to investigate exhaust cam retard as much as IPS did.
If the skunk2 cam has a sweet spot at 104-107 and you cannot get that with the skunk2 cam gear, this simply tells me that someone along the line messed up. I am open to any other explanations.
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Old 06-13-2007, 09:05 AM   #51
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

Chunky, 1 mark= 2 degrees on the exhaust cam gear which = 4 degrees at the crank. -5 marks is 20 crank degrees, not 10. At 0 lash, when you drop in a set of Skunk2 stage 2's the centerline is 126. -5 marks will get you to 106. Hope this clarifies things a bit. Cant wait to hear how things go at the dyno with your cam gear in the correct spot, it should be good. Keep me updated.

Nikos, From what ive been told, the cams were indeed designed to have the centerline around 107. And, these cams were out 3+ years ago also. It appears that something happened along the manufacturing line and the positioning of the keyway or pin was off. And yes, there are plans to correct this issue. The current concern was making sure that the newer sets of cams wouldnt be confused with batches already out there where someone would retard an exhaust cam 5 marks and destroy the motor. In the meanwhile, if anyone has a set of skunk cams and doesnt have an exhaust gear, you can call me or pm me and I can help you out with that. There never was some strategy or hidden agenda to sell more cam gears. Shit, we have plenty of intake gears sitting here that only move when a customer is building a full race engine.

Again, this is not intended to be some Skunk vs. IPS thread again. I just want to make sure that the customers out there have the correct information, and are making the most power they can when running these cams.
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Old 06-13-2007, 10:57 AM   #52
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Red face Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skunk2TS
..There never was some strategy or hidden agenda to sell more cam gears...
I noticed the Exh Cam Gear for K20/K24 is out of stock! (warning: this was only a joke.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skunk2TS
Again, this is not intended to be some Skunk vs. IPS thread again. I just want to make sure that the customers out there have the correct information, and are making the most power they can when running these cams.
This is what its all about!

Thanks guys for all the informative information! Still though.. I can't wait to hear about the future K2 Mark II's
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Old 06-13-2007, 11:47 AM   #53
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skunk2TS
Chunky, 1 mark= 2 degrees on the exhaust cam gear which = 4 degrees at the crank. -5 marks is 20 crank degrees, not 10. At 0 lash, when you drop in a set of Skunk2 stage 2's the centerline is 126. -5 marks will get you to 106. Hope this clarifies things a bit. Cant wait to hear how things go at the dyno with your cam gear in the correct spot, it should be good. Keep me updated.
Thanks for the corrections. The 119 centerline came from one of our previous email exchanges and I thought it was standard practice that 1mark = 1 degree on the cam, and since the cam rotates half speed relative to the crank, 1 mark = 2 crank degrees. The cam gear itself states that 1mark = 2deg, but I thought that was just referring to the 1/2 ratio between the cam and crank.

At any rate, I'll be degreeing things in properly to take the guesswork out.

So by your numbers, 2.5marks = 10deg, thus I'm running at 126-10 = 116 deg. I'll keep everyone posted on how things go when I retard to the optimum centerline.
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Old 06-13-2007, 11:58 AM   #54
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

No problem.

A lot of B series cam gears (including our Tuner Series gears) are 1 mark=2 degrees. It wasnt until we came out with our B Pro Series gears that we had a 1 mark=1 line gear for fine tuning. A lot of times we have to remember to ask the customer what kind of gear they have and what there marks represent before we go quoting cam gear settings.
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Old 06-13-2007, 03:59 PM   #55
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

[QUOTE=guu-sama]I noticed the Exh Cam Gear for K20/K24 is out of stock! (warning: this was only a joke.)
Tony, you really need to get someone to update the site, cuz I know I didn't buy them all today....
LOL
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Old 06-13-2007, 05:23 PM   #56
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

Hung = good peoples

My K24 is in. Hung, Loi and Myself need to line up one night
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Old 06-14-2007, 04:16 AM   #57
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skunk2TS
Nikos, From what ive been told, the cams were indeed designed to have the centerline around 107. And, these cams were out 3+ years ago also. It appears that something happened along the manufacturing line and the positioning of the keyway or pin was off. And yes, there are plans to correct this issue. The current concern was making sure that the newer sets of cams wouldnt be confused with batches already out there where someone would retard an exhaust cam 5 marks and destroy the motor. In the meanwhile, if anyone has a set of skunk cams and doesnt have an exhaust gear, you can call me or pm me and I can help you out with that. There never was some strategy or hidden agenda to sell more cam gears. Shit, we have plenty of intake gears sitting here that only move when a customer is building a full race engine.
sounds like a mess... so you're giving affected customers corrected cams? or a free exhaust cam gear to fix the centerline?
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Old 06-14-2007, 05:45 AM   #58
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

skunk2 stage2 w/ exh cam gear still cheaper then a set of OLD ips K2's. So if someone is implying nickel and diming i dunno bout that...
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Old 06-14-2007, 06:05 AM   #59
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

It depends how you look at it. If you think that using an aftermarket cam gear is not a hassle, so be it.. If you are a tuner with your own dyno, I see no problem, but retarding it on your own and hoping that the car will run fine with no real basemap database would not be smart..

The IPS basemap made 260whp on our k24a with IPSk2 cams and JE 13.3:1 pistons... Nothing was changed... Just street tuned the A/F ration..

I am sure there is going to be a day where skunk2 is going to have the same amount of K pro maps available for their cams, but for right now, I don't seem to see a skunk2 map on the Kpro manager.

Do you have K pro? Next time you are in there, open it up and take a look at the ignition values on the IPS k2 map... You cannot get a better basemap unless hondata tunes it.
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Old 06-14-2007, 12:52 PM   #60
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Default Re: update on my friend hung's EG with skunk2 cams

So IPS came up with there cam timing and K-pro maps on their dyno, and have different maps for displacement, compression, flow numbers? Did they try moving the EX cam, or is that just where it works? If the base map for all the engine variations is included it makes a differance and I can see a higher price.
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