***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s*** - K20A.org .:. The K Series Source . Honda / Acura K20a k24a Engine Forum
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:32 PM   #1
Vteckidd
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Default ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

Chunky and i tested the IPS k2s and the skunk2 stage2s this past weekend on his personal motor.

Motor Specs:
K20A2
CP 12.5:1 Pistons
Eagle Rods
ACL Race Bearings
RBC Intake
MSPi/TDF CAI
Borla Header 2.5in collector
MSPi/TDF Custom 3in exhuast

We originally had tons of graphs, different cam angles, lots more information, but someone leaked the test results to Omniman and he posted them before we could finalize our presentation. Here it is:

PICS:








FINAL GRAPH


Commentary from CHUNKY:
VTEC on the K2s was dropped to 5000rpm and should probably have been set even lower, but tuning time was limited in the interests of fairness. Both of these graphs are from the same day - Sunday - in the same rainy and dismal weather. The leaked dyno plots reflect the K2 dyno from Saturday and reflects the highest numbers seen from the K2s. The numbers from the K2s from both days are within 1hp of one another so the performance of the motor was consistent. Most of the tuning efforts were on the VTEC maps. I assumed that is what would be of primary interest. Since I was time limited it would have been impossible for me to nail everything down on the non VTEC maps as well.

IPS K2:
- Liked things around 13.3:1 in the low to mid revs. After peak power, leaning out helps them sustain power production. To avoid a/f related squabbles, I simply targeted both cams for the same a/f.
- Liked a low VTEC. Great for street driving and road course.
- Tricky to tune the VTEC on this particular engine setup. There is probably more power to be had in the midrange if the a/f was smoothed. I wanted to tune more, but limited myself in the interest of fairness to both manufacturers.
- Peak power was realized at 40deg advance. 40 deg made more power than all the other cam angles in VTEC. The low cam had quite a bit of cam angle action which made the VTEC x/o particularly difficult to tune.
- 50deg VTEC maps were not tuned due to clearance concerns.

Skunk2 StageII:
- Leaner makes more power. After 14:1 a/f, I had to pull timing which offset any gains.
- 5800rpm VTEC. Rather high, but it has a very cool sound to it. Kind of like a mini sonic boom delivered with rifle bolt precision. Only drawback is that unless you are wringing the car out, you will fall out of VTEC frequently. Of course, that means you get to hear the VTEC kick over and over which, to some, isn't a bad thing. The crossover was tuned VERY well. It comes on amazingly smooth and shows in the plot.
- Made peak power on 30deg in VTEC. Low cam utilized 30deg extensively as well. This seems to reflect Skunk2's preference for fixed cam gears (30deg in VTC is somewhat analogous to "zero" on a fixed cam gear.
- 50deg VTEC maps were not tuned due to clearance concerns.

Each cam has it's strengths, but the IPS K2s hold their advantage from 5500 to 8000rpm. Considering all the hoopla regarding the fairness of comparing a 2 year old cam profile to the newer Skunk2 profile, the IPS product is aging gracefully. The Skunk2 team also deserves credit for putting a solid cam on the market at an excellent price point. I'm certain that many of you rank purchase price as a key factor, and in that department it's tough to beat Skunk2.

Competition between two manufacturers has never been a bad thing. In the end, the consumer benefits from the struggle for supremacy. Hats off to both Skunk2 and IPS for providing us with two excellent options for our beloved K-series motors. I'm certainly looking forward to what both of them have in store for the future!

I'd like to thank Signalpuke and Skunk2 for providing the cam hardware used in this test, Mainstream performance for providing the shop space and dyno time to make this happen, Nikos for providing us with a great free service, and anyone who took the time to read and comment on what we've done with this project. It's amazing how this went from a round of internet smack talk into a real and legitimate comparison in less than a month.

Some other questions I wanted to address:

- We installed the K2s + valve springs on Saturday night. This was not done to give the IPS product any special advantages. It was a matter of logistics as time has to be allotted for the unexpected. It should not matter what day the cams were tuned as long as the dyno plots taken for comparison are from the same day under similar conditions. All dyno pulls were done well after sundown so that air temps would be consistent.

- The general tuning procedure was to tune each cam angle map from 00-50deg. Then create a composite map. This was done for the low cam and VTEC. The two composite maps were then overlaid to determine VTEC. After that point, the tune was smoothed and optimized for power. Really just your basic k-series tuning philosophy, nothing special. This was done for both cam makers.

- The Borla header did not prove to be as much of a limiting factor as was feared. To make 220+ SAE on Mainstream's dyno is quite an accomplishment for an N/A motor. A better header would have benefited both cam setups. Similarly, the use of an exhaust cam gear to dial in the overlap as well as the use of 8620 steel cams would have benefited both cams.

- The Skunk2 cams were making peak power with the 14:1 A/F. The IPS cams were making more power with a richer A/F but I leaned them out knowing in advance that the Skunk cams liked things lean. This was later verified when tuning of the Skunk2's began. I anticipated that people would question why one cam was lean and the other rich so I just targeted 14:1 based on prior experience with tuning Skunk2's and IPS's products.


The K2 dynos were also consistent with a dyno tuning session earlier that week. This individual had bought his cams over 6 months ago.


Curve has the same general shape - should be no surprise. Same installer, same tuner, same dyno, same intake manifold, same grind of the k2 cams. I just made more HP than he did due to the higher compression, and better exhaust/intake setup.

The conclusion is that there was no update the K2 profiles for this test. The profiles are the same now as they were nearly 3 years ago when they first hit the market.


RETAIL PRICE

*note* the cams we tested were NOT THE NEW 8620 CORES that IPS NOW SELLS. We tested the old DUCTILE Cams because it was impossible to find an 8620 camshaft. The retail pricing reflects the 8620 cams, NOT THE CAMS WE TESTED which were sold cheaper and are not longer TECHNICALLY available. the New 8620 is a new material but the same profile as the old ductile grind. Profiles are the SAME, material is different which is the reason for the price increase

IPS :
8620 billet steel. MSRP for all applications ground on the 8620 cores - $1600.00. Eibach EVS - $419.00 retail. Titanium retainers - $270.00 retail. Product is available through IPS-PDN: Premiere Distribution Network only. Contact authorized dealers for sales inquires.

SKUNK2:
Stage 2 Camshafts $797.95
valvsprings $374.06
Retainers $195.51
Authorized skunk2 dealer network found on SKUNK2.COM
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:37 PM   #2
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Default Re: ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

great info
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:37 PM   #3
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Default Re: ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

to me IPS powerband looks better, i doubt u could use that 1 extra hp of s2 much..

but then the pricing factor comes in as well
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:38 PM   #4
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Default Re: ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

Damn.

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Old 01-22-2007, 07:40 PM   #5
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Default Re: ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

all i will say is that im happy with the results. i think both cams got a FAIR shot.

i feel like i just wasted an entire weekend though because someone stole the results from my photobucket and posted them. There was an entire write up with pics that we did, along with responses from the owners of both companies. Sadly, that wont be shown now.
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:41 PM   #6
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Default Re: ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
I had emailed interview questions to Skunk2 and Ron to have them answer to you could get to know a little more about their product, pricing, etc. but since someone jumped the gun, i guess this will prob turn into a flame war now, something i was hoping to avoid.
There you have it.
Why would it turn into a flame war? The results were performed by a 3rd party not connected to either company with a random customer car.
Testing was legit, so what would people flame?
You can always add the interview questions later.

-Jalal
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:42 PM   #7
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Default Re: ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJ23FE
Why would it turn into a flame war? The results were performed by a 3rd party not connected to either company with a random customer car.
Testing was legit, so what would people flame?
You can always add the interview questions later.

-Jalal
we were trying to lay out the positives an negatives of both sides. both companies. we went through great lengths to have a DETAILED write up to keep flaming to a minimum.
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:43 PM   #8
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Default Re: ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
all i will say is that im happy with the results. i think both cams got a FAIR shot.

i feel like i just wasted an entire weekend though because someone stole the results from my photobucket and posted them. There was an entire write up with pics that we did, along with responses from the owners of both companies. Sadly, that wont be shown now. Seems Omnis hatred for skunk eclipses his lack of judgement.

ill never do this again. what a slap in the face
What is stopping you from posting up the pics, etc???
I am greatful you performed such a test, and would like to see more in the future.

-Jalal
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Last edited by MJ23FE; 01-22-2007 at 07:48 PM..
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:43 PM   #9
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Default Re: ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
all i will say is that im happy with the results. i think both cams got a FAIR shot.

i feel like i just wasted an entire weekend though because someone stole the results from my photobucket and posted them. There was an entire write up with pics that we did, along with responses from the owners of both companies. Sadly, that wont be shown now. Seems Omnis hatred for skunk eclipses his lack of judgement.

ill never do this again. what a slap in the face
Joke is on omni-power, I have his IP and have begun filling out a complaint. Because the initial upload took place outside of CA, this actually constitutes inter-state crime... even if omnipower is located on the east coast, the photobucket server is in ca. Needless to say, omnipower is a member of this site under a different name. What he does not know, is that his isp will cut him off soon, and if nikos allows it, I will reveal his identity to everyone here... big mistake phuckface
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:43 PM   #10
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Default Re: ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
we were trying to lay out the positives an negatives of both sides. both companies. we went through great lengths to have a DETAILED write up to keep flaming to a minimum.
That can still happen.

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Old 01-22-2007, 07:45 PM   #11
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Default Re: ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

It is interesting... I just think that the Skunk2 cams are getting revved more.. my friend's K2 peaked at 8500 with OEM valvetrain. That is all... The graph is interesting.
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:46 PM   #12
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Default Re: ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

Very nice results. Numbers don't lie and i believe that the tests were run as BEST as anyone could have done. Good work, and we thank you and Chunky (i hope he gets home safely) for your hours and hours of work to bring us this information.

These are the numbers people, don't bitch. It is what it is.
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:48 PM   #13
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Default Re: ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikos
It is interesting... I just think that the Skunk2 cams are getting revved more.. my friend's K2 peaked at 8500 with OEM valvetrain. That is all... The graph is interesting.
WELL HAD SOMEONE GIVEN ME THE TIME, I WOULD HAVE POSTED OVER 25 DYNOS SHOWING EVERY PULL EVERY RPM, ETC.

but apparently that was not in the best interest of this board. We revved the K2s out, and they flatlined, the skunk2s carried further. but those dynos are in chunkys hands.

this is the reason for the wait.
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:50 PM   #14
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Default Re: ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

Talk about a good guess! hahaha told ya's all... skunk2 likes their cams up high, loosing significant midrange at the expense of top end...

it just depends i guess but yeah the skunk2s love rpm...
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:55 PM   #15
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Honestly brother, if you let it, it will take away from what you did.

Most of the K community and some of the F20C (me) appreciate what yall have done. Any extra info, pics & commentary is greatly welcomed.
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:56 PM   #16
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Default Re: ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

Damn 12 pulls to fully tune a setup is not alot at all, how were you able to try such variances in cam angles, timing and a/f ratios in only 12 pulls?
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:58 PM   #17
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Default Re: ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

Quote:
Originally Posted by miller
Damn 12 pulls to fully tune a setup is not alot at all, how were you able to try such variances in cam angles, timing and a/f ratios in only 12 pulls?
this is EXACTLY the kind of speculation i was trying to avoid. to Omni Power.

there were 2 folders for both cams. there were more pulls done than what is listed, both go around 45-50 pulls. we just chose the ones with the best a/f ratio, best power numbers
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Old 01-22-2007, 08:00 PM   #18
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Default Re: ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

actually im not going to comment any further, ill withold my opinions and any facts i have until im ready.

you guys enjoy the results, but look for a more "informative thread" later on in the week
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Old 01-22-2007, 08:01 PM   #19
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Default Re: ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

so then these graphs that were posted arent the final test result graphs?

those tq. graphs seem to be all over the place.
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Old 01-22-2007, 08:05 PM   #20
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Default Re: ***OFFICIAL RESULTS IPS K2s VS Skunk2 STAGE 2s***

glad you see the results.
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