Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3 - K20A.org .:. The K Series Source . Honda / Acura K20a k24a Engine Forum
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Old 01-05-2007, 11:11 AM   #1
Skunk2TS
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Default Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

"ok, officially this thread went to crap.

If you want to post dynos, go for it. If you want to start meaningful threads, go for it.

If you want to praise your parents for the great job they did, apparently the all motor forum , is not the right place for it."



Well then, thought I would take the oppurtunity to post some dyno data

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Old 01-05-2007, 11:17 AM   #2
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

what were the cam angles? IPS cams are sensitive on cam angles. IPS cams are not ment for set cam angles. Since when did you start tuning motors Tony?
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Old 01-05-2007, 11:47 AM   #3
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

nice to see a graph... must be a reputable dyno as I have seen some other cam dyno's on the same layout/graph pretty sure what I saw was a a k20 (2.0L 86x86) 12.5 ported head, cams, etc put down 306 hp & 201 tq (obviously a different motor) on 91 octane I believe

this is an engine dyno - correct??? n/m it is
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Old 01-05-2007, 11:50 AM   #4
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

hmmm wow things should start getting hot around here!! i love cam battles!
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Old 01-05-2007, 12:00 PM   #5
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6spd_EK
nice to see a graph... must be a reputable dyno
Of course, consider the source...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsxmachine
I have a hunch that every cam manufacturer (or intake, or what have you) will always make the best power with their own parts, in performing an "objective" comparison
Hey, nostradamus?
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Old 01-05-2007, 12:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

K10's looks like it has some tuning issues. The power curves I'v seen with the k10s don't typically look like that.

Here is an example
http://www.intrinsicperformance.com/...10-devtest.gif
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Old 01-05-2007, 12:46 PM   #7
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

looks like you need to get rid of the RBC...

K10- dying off at 8k? Or did it keep going?

who did the tuning? what kind of dyno?
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Old 01-05-2007, 12:48 PM   #8
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

the graph says 90mm bore x 96.5mm stroke = 2455.6cc displacement.

It also shows: 12.6:1 compression, ported head, 68mm throttle body on a RBC manifold.

The k10's are designed to make power well beyond 8000rpm as the name would imply. Using an RBC manifold is a bottleneck to the power potential of the k10's.

This is just an example of poor cam selection for a given application. On the above engine setup, I'd use the Kme cams. However if you use ITBs, the k10s would be my choice.
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Old 01-05-2007, 01:11 PM   #9
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

OMG this is great, please dont close this one

i run stIII's see that boys , not to say I'd ever hit that ,but the potential is there in black and white

seems right to thinks that both setup probably could benefit from using something better than rbc
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Old 01-05-2007, 01:39 PM   #10
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

To further demonstrate, consider the following graph. Why run K10s on a motor that is nothing more than an aggressive street build? The test was skewed from the start.



The difference between the blue line and the red line is TUNING. Both are from the development motor for the k10.

Also, and I have been wanting to ask this for a long long time, where were you guys all last season? Skunk2 didn't even show up at their home track (Pomona) to face off with IPS. Seems a little odd that after the season is over Skunk2 is posting what appears to be a very skewed comparison. I'm sure Skunk2 had to go through a bit of trouble just to get their hands on the cams since I'm quite certain that Ron would not sell his camshafts to Skunk2 directly. Settle it on the track or wait for an impartial cam test to tell the full tale.

And before someone gets things twisted, I have installed and tuned a couple of sets of Skunk2 cams. I think they're a great value and they fill a niche in the market that wants good performance at a low price point. Skewed comparisons just rub me the wrong way. If you look at the number of dyno runs (assuming that d33 represents the last of the skunk2 stage III dyno pulls and d52 represents the last of the IPS k10 dyno pulls) there were 33 pulls made for the skunk2 cams and only 19 pulls made for the IPS cams. If you make one pull for each cam angle on the high and low cam, that's a minimum of 12 pulls to tune a k-series car. I really don't think that any tuner could fully tune the k10's with only 19 pulls. This test really does not look like it was conducted in a fair and impartial manner.
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Old 01-05-2007, 02:05 PM   #11
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

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Old 01-05-2007, 02:25 PM   #12
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

oh shizzle dizzle LOL ... the cam battle

Tony, I'd be curious to see the cam angle and cam timing maps used from 5600rpm on up ... for the K10s

I could see the the stage 3's were tune but I see a "detune" for the K10s from 5600rpms on up.
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Old 01-05-2007, 04:28 PM   #13
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

if it is a skewed comparison, lets do this. let arrange to have an engine that meets the criteria for k10's here at skunk and we can have our competitors tune their own set-up and run the dyno themselves. then it will be our turn with our cams. we're down and we are all in southern california so logistics isn't a problem.
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Old 01-05-2007, 04:30 PM   #14
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

ps- i like how the last thread was edited and sanitized for your protection.
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Old 01-05-2007, 05:29 PM   #15
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by chunky`
To further demonstrate, consider the following graph. Why run K10s on a motor that is nothing more than an aggressive street build? The test was skewed from the start.



The difference between the blue line and the red line is TUNING. Both are from the development motor for the k10.

Also, and I have been wanting to ask this for a long long time, where were you guys all last season? Skunk2 didn't even show up at their home track (Pomona) to face off with IPS. Seems a little odd that after the season is over Skunk2 is posting what appears to be a very skewed comparison. I'm sure Skunk2 had to go through a bit of trouble just to get their hands on the cams since I'm quite certain that Ron would not sell his camshafts to Skunk2 directly. Settle it on the track or wait for an impartial cam test to tell the full tale.

And before someone gets things twisted, I have installed and tuned a couple of sets of Skunk2 cams. I think they're a great value and they fill a niche in the market that wants good performance at a low price point. Skewed comparisons just rub me the wrong way. If you look at the number of dyno runs (assuming that d33 represents the last of the skunk2 stage III dyno pulls and d52 represents the last of the IPS k10 dyno pulls) there were 33 pulls made for the skunk2 cams and only 19 pulls made for the IPS cams. If you make one pull for each cam angle on the high and low cam, that's a minimum of 12 pulls to tune a k-series car. I really don't think that any tuner could fully tune the k10's with only 19 pulls. This test really does not look like it was conducted in a fair and impartial manner.

It's kinda funny, but I hear about tuners all the time who can tune the "k" in an hour. How do you do 12 controlled pulls and fuel editing,ignition, and v-tec fine-tuning in an hour? It's crazy, and I'm glad somebody else caught this.

These cams are the wild side of street for sure, mostly race.
I'm sure most would be more interested in a comparison of the skunk2 stg.2's versus the IPS k2's.
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Old 01-05-2007, 05:39 PM   #16
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

The K10s are definately overkill on that setup. That setup is a mild street setup at best. You even labeled the k10s as "RACE CAMS". This graph is stating the already obvious...the Stage IIIs are a better choice for a mild street build. The two sets of cams are from completely different classes.
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Old 01-05-2007, 07:12 PM   #17
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

its funny how someone can ASSUME so much from the graph names d52 and d33. you are assuming that runs d01 thru d51 were all testing the same combination. and why would one assume that after tuning the stage 3 cams, it wouldn't be easier and quicker to find the tuning for the k10 cams? if the profiles are similar in specification, the tuning should be similar too. if anything the cam advance curve would just be shifted to compensate for the different lobe indexing between the 2 cams.
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Old 01-05-2007, 07:30 PM   #18
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmsii
if it is a skewed comparison, lets do this. let arrange to have an engine that meets the criteria for k10's here at skunk and we can have our competitors tune their own set-up and run the dyno themselves. then it will be our turn with our cams. we're down and we are all in southern california so logistics isn't a problem.
that would be great, although i doubt i would see that happen in our lifetime. If thats not an IPS callout i dont know what is LOL

where is ron through all of this? id like to see what he has to say to that.

I see ALOT of people saying "the k10s are too aggressive for this setup" and "the cams need more to breath up top", my question to those guys is :

DO YOU HAVE ANY PERSONAL EXPERIEINCE WITH THE K10s and IPS CAMSHAFTS IN A MOTOR OF THIS CALIBER? if the answer is NO, then i would prefer to hear from someone that has run K10s aka Ron.

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Old 01-05-2007, 07:32 PM   #19
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vteckidd
that would be great, although i doubt i would see that happen in our lifetime. If thats not an IPS callout i dont know what is LOL

where is ron through all of this? id like to see what he has to say to that.

I see ALOT of people saying "the k10s are too aggressive for this setup" and "the cams need more to breath up top", my question to those guys is :

DO YOU HAVE ANY PERSONAL EXPERIEINCE WITH THE K10s and IPS CAMSHAFTS IN A MOTOR OF THIS CALIBER? if the answer is NO, then i would prefer to hear from someone that has run K10s aka Ron.

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ron has not posted on this site ever since he decided to close his doors to the public..
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Old 01-05-2007, 07:37 PM   #20
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Default Re: Which Cam Need HELP!! K10 vs. Stg 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by 9bells
It's kinda funny, but I hear about tuners all the time who can tune the "k" in an hour. How do you do 12 controlled pulls and fuel editing,ignition, and v-tec fine-tuning in an hour? It's crazy, and I'm glad somebody else caught this.


These cams are the wild side of street for sure, mostly race.
I'm sure most would be more interested in a comparison of the skunk2 stg.2's versus the IPS k2's.
Chunky you should know better man. you use my dyno to tune LOL. Run numbers have nothing to do with the actual data posted.

You have done over 180 dyno pulls on my dynojet. Lets say tomrrow you make a thread stating "Skunk2 STAGE2s vs IPS K2s"

if your LAST dyno run from MONTHS ago was 180. THen your FIRST run with the S2S2s would be run 181. lets say you did 20 pulls on the Sks2s. THat would put you at run 200.

then you switch cams and do IPS K2s an do 20 pulls. then post the data. the data would read

SkS2s RUN 200, IPS K2s RUN 220.

is that to assume you did 200 dyno pulls on the s2s2s and only 20 on the K2s? no, of course not.

I think most of you are seeing a hard pill to swallow, that another company MAY have a better camshaft than IPS.

NOT SAYING THAT THIS IS TRUE, but it seems like most of you wont even consider it.

i vote for a third party test. wheres DonF
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