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Old 12-25-2006, 05:50 PM   #41
A2gt35r
 
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

Nikos, thanks for looking out for the pure enthusiast. Now you're going to hear my dealings with Ron.
When I called him last year for a set of KT1's he went far & beyond the call of dutty. I already had dyno results that were posted on his site & he asked me who was doing the head (Headgames) & took it apon himself to have a very technical discussion with Dave & looking out for my best interest! Needless to say Dave was blown away & made a point of telling me about his conversation, telling me that we were dealing with one of the best in the industry.
There are only a few people I deal with & Ron is the 1st. I'm in the middle of getting a production class 2.2 from IPS & am very excited to see this work of art run.
About the cams, I built a frank that saw 530 whp. with IPS cams slightly tuned by Jeff Evans & was detuned to 475 whp. with no cam tuning, all was done on pump w/T3 gt35r @ 14/15 psi.
I personally wouldn't use anything other than IPS. When it comes to the steel selected & it's strength, Ron lays it all on the table for the public.
Also something to look at is the fact that almost every turbo cam designed for FI was giving midrange & then lost the top (little lift & longer duration) making the cams a very bad investment. This is not the case with IPS, & the reason my tuner was anxious to tune the proven product.
Racing needs more Rons
BTW. I know the skunk motor was sold to a local near me & didn't make near the power of the CM all motor cars are. Since the beginning of racing you showed the product on the track, not R&Ding on someone elses budget. That's what seperates the men from the boys!!!
BTW. I have NO personal ties to Ron, just a deep trust in a sincere guy!
Make your own choice on cams & chose wisely, I did!
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Old 12-25-2006, 06:01 PM   #42
gmsii
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

RESPONSE IN CAPS:

Thanks for your point of view. I do have some comments but maybe we can continue this through email because I don't want this to turn into a vs vs arguement. It's just the nature of things that I believe what I see and I have built good relationships with some of the people in the industry and I am fortunate enough to be learning new things every day.
I AM MORE THAN OPEN TO ADDRESS YOUR CONCERNS VIA EMAIL, BUT IT SEEMS KIND OF BIASED/LOADED TO BRING UP CERTAIN ISSUES IN PUBLIC THEN ASKING FOR A PRIVATE RESPONSE.

As far as the well known LA racer story, I was told by a member of that crew that the pistons were modified and that the motor blew up before it even raced down the track.. so I am not sure how fair that comparison is. But seriously, let's not get into that.. Skunk2 is a huge company, and I would expect nothing less from the head of the marketing department.
THE 9HP DYNO RESULTS WERE WITH JUST A CAM CHANGE JUST BEFORE THE ENGINE WAS REDONE. AFTER THE ENGINE WAS REDONE, THE GAINS WERE SIGNIFICANTLY GREATER. WHAT HAPPENED TO IT AT THE TRACK I DON’T KNOW OTHER THAN THAT’S RACING.

I would suggest that the results speak from themselves. It would not be fair to brian crower, IPS, hytech and my other sponsors to allow skunk2 to directly market their cams on this website. If you want to contribute content, you are welcome.. but I find it hard to believe that S2 is interested in educating the public on K series engines.. It is more about educating the public on why s2 is the best for our k series engines.. and that is far from the truth. ITS OBVIOUS THAT WE HAVE DIFFERING OPINIONS, WHICH IS FINE, BUT HOW CAN YOU PRESUME TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT SKUNKS REASONS FOR DOING THINGS IF YOU AREN’T DIRECTLY INVOLVED WITH SKUNK.

IT IS FINE THAT YOU BELIEVE THAT SKUNK IS FAR FROM BEST, BUT UNLESS WE DYNO A BUNCH OF CAMS, HOW DO YOU KNOW YOUR FAVORITE IS THE BEST? HOW ABOUT IF WE DO THIS….LET’S HAVE A DYNO SHOOT OUT, WE’LL INVITE ALL CAM MAKERS TO THE DANCE AND YOU CAN PICK THE MULE ENGINE AND YOU OR MEMBERS OF YOUR FORUM CAN SUPERVISE.

As far as not racing in the NHRA, let's not hide behind these excuses. They cannot afford to take a chance of being number #2. That is why they don;t want to race in my opinion. Please respect my wish and let's continue this through email. AGAIN A PRESUMPTION. ITS FUNNY PEOPLE ALWAYS SAY THAT SKUNK CAN’T TAKE A CHANCE BEING NUMBER 2, BUT THE TRUTH IS WE CAN’T AFFORD TO RACE EVERY SINGLE YEAR BECAUSE IT IS EXPENSIVE AND ALSO BECAUSE WE HAVE A LOT OF PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT TO DO. WE LOOK FORWARD TO RUNNING FAST TIMES NEXT YEAR. IF YOU LOOK AT SKUNK HISTORY, EVERYTIME WE’VE TAKEN A BREAK, WE’VE COME BACK AND RESET THE BAR.

My friend called skunk2 to order cams and the first thing you said was that IPS cams break and that they make not good power.. That is not a very professional approach in my book. I AGREE THAT WAS NOT PROFESSIONAL. AND IF THAT WAS INDEED WHAT THEY SAID, THEY SHOULD BE DISCIPLINED. I WILL BRING THAT TO THE ATTENTION OF THE SALES MANAGER.

I cannot let you come on here and say that IPS or hytech do not dyno their cams in house and that is a reason why these companies cannot produce good cams. If you were around when IPS launced the K2 cams, Ron went way out of his way to provide tech info with dynos from different sources.. he then carried on testing these cams in different motors and shared a lot of good information. I SAID “NEITHER OF THOSE COMPANIES DESIGN, MEASURE, OR DYNOTEST THEIR CAMS IN HOUSE, SO HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THEY COULD DELIVER THE BEST CAM FOR YOUR ENGINE?” PERHAPS I SHOULD SAY THAT CAMSHAFT DEVELOPMENT IS A DESIGN AND TESTING INTENSIVE PROCESS. IF THEY ARE ABLE TO OUTSOURCE EVERYTHING AND THOROUGHLY TEST MANY COMBINATIONS BEFORE ARRIVING AT THEIR SELECTED PROFILES, THEN MORE POWER TO THEM.

When the skunk2 cams got released, I got this in an email from a skunk2 dealer , https://www.k20a.org/upload/dynos2stage1.xls I BELIEVE THAT IS A DYNO GRAPH OF A STOCK TYPE-S ENGINE WITH A STAGE 1 CAM CHANGE. THIS CAM WAS RELEASED WHEN THE ITR CAM AND TODA CAMS WAS THE BUZZ. THERE ARE PLENTY OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE MUCH GREATER GAINS THAN WHAT THAT GRAPH SHOWS. AND THE GAINS WITH THE STAGE 2’S AND 3’S ARE EVEN MORE.


I don;t think you can critisize a smaller company for not having the facilities you guys have.. they are a small company with big results with a different marketing approach, driven by one person.. no need to knock him for that. NO ONE IS KNOCKING THE LITTLE GUY. PEOPLE FORGET THAT WE WERE THE LITTLE GUY AT ONE TIME. IN FACT WE ARE STILL SMALL EMPLOYING LESS THAN 20 PEOPLE. BUT WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN COMMITTED TO REINVESTING IN THE COMPANY AND ITS CORE DEVELOPMENT CAPABILITIES AND EXPERTISE. SO I DON’T THINK ITS FAIR FOR PEOPLE TO DISCOUNT WHAT WE HAVE DONE, OR WHAT WE CAN OFFER TO THE ENTHUSIASTS.

Do you know of a company called Hunter Performance company? It is owned by Jeff Giovino? Who works for Skunk2? And he tried to contact directly the IPS manifold foundry? To buy the manifolds? Let's not beat around the bush. I had good intentions but after reading your reply a few times while trying to reply, I see that you are manipulating the truth. I HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT THAT. I’LL GIVE HIM A CALL AND ASK HIM WHAT THAT WAS ALL ABOUT. BUT SKUNK HAS NO INTEREST IN THAT MANIFOLD. WE HAVE DEVELOPED OUR OWN AND WE ARE JUST WAITING TO FINALIZE THE COMPOSITE MANUFACTURING PROCESS BEFORE WE BEGIN TOOLING.

(JUST SPOKE WITH JEFF…HE’LL CHIME IN REGARDING THAT WHOLE SITUATION. FROM WHAT HE TOLD ME HE WAS REQUESTED TO CHECK ON THE PROGRESS OF THE IPS MANIFOLD BY ONE OF IPS’ BIGGEST DEALERS THAT HAPPENED TO BE HIS CUSTOMER AS WELL…HE CAN ELABORATE IF HE WANTS)

Last year, before NHRA racing, the argument was for Skunk being king.
I DON’T KNOW WHAT ARGUMENT YOU ARE REFERRING TO. WHEN WE GO RACING, WE RACE NOT ARGUE. BUT IF MEMORY SERVES ME CORRECTLY SKUNK WAS KING AT THE END OF LAST YEAR IN TERMS OF SETTING BOTH ENDS OF THE RECORD.

Now, they want to "educate" the consumer outside of the racing limelight?
When IPS started they had the dynos but people turned a blind eye to all the proof - they only wanted race results. So now Skunk wants to follow the same road. I DON’T KNOW WHAT ROAD YOU ARE REFERRING TO, BUT IF ENTHUSIASTS WANT RACE RESULTS AND DYNOGRAPHS, WE WILL GIVE THEM TO THEM THIS YEAR =)

Maybe it is true, but I will not be fooled and I will try to protect my website users
“MAYBE IT IS TRUE, BUT I WILL NOT BE FOOLED”???? I DON’T UNDERSTAND THE LOGIC OF THAT STATEMENT. IF ITS TRUE…ITS TRUE. WHAT IS THERE TO PROTECT PEOPLE FROM? LET PEOPLE HAVE INFORMATION AND DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES. I AM SURE YOUR WEBSITE USERS ARE INTELLIGENT AND CAN FORMULATE THE BEST POSSIBLE DECISIONS GIVEN THE RIGHT INFORMATION.

THANK YOU FOR GIVING ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO RESPOND.
NOW IF YOU WANT TO CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION IN EMAIL I WOULD BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO ADDRESS ANY FURTHER CONCERNS OR DOUBTS THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE. I ALSO WELCOME ANY OTHER QUESTIONS OR INQUIRIES FROM YOUR WEBSITE USERS.


PS: AS FOR THE SKUNK ENGINE IN THE LAST POST THAT DOESN'T NEARLY MAKE THE POWER OF THE CM ENGINES........THE CUSTOMER WAS ONLY SOLD A LONG BLOCK (NO INTAKE AND HEADER WHICH ARE SIGNIFICANT FACTORS TO MAKING POWER) AND THE ENGINE IS 2.4L. THERE IS EASILY ANOTHER 20HP IN THAT ENGINE.
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Old 12-25-2006, 06:04 PM   #43
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

Nikos, you provided a very concise and pointed statement, and I agree with your thoughts.

IPS Rocks, Ron has spent alot of time going over my 2.2 build with me and what I wanted to accomplish with it. You do not see large companys doing that.
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Old 12-25-2006, 06:24 PM   #44
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

Nikos,

This is Jeff of Hunter Performance and yes I am currently an employee of Skunk2. I did contact the foundry for the manifolds regarding other reasons that we can go over in private. Skunk2 had no knowledge of this until your post...feel free to contact me if you have further questions.
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Old 12-27-2006, 01:36 PM   #45
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

i know you guys are mostly talkin bout ips and skunk 2 for the most part on this thread. im also debating on an allmotor cam to move itb's, and i dont want to build the block juss yet, any way i was wondering about the brian crower cams, i havent really heard anyone talk about those, but i got someone sellin em to me. can you guys please gimme ur opinion's on those cams, and juss plain let me know if they are worth gettin or not, thanx alot everyone
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Old 12-27-2006, 01:58 PM   #46
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

If skunk2 cams are the best...then why did they have to steal IPS k10s for the race car?? Also heard you tried to get another competitors piston design. Damn u guys are on a roll must be due to all that R&D! . Maybe by next year someone will let you in on headwork!
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Old 12-27-2006, 02:34 PM   #47
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueHatch
If skunk2 cams are the best...then why did they have to steal IPS k10s for the race car?? Also heard you tried to get another competitors piston design. Damn u guys are on a roll must be due to all that R&D! . Maybe by next year someone will let you in on headwork!
don't know where you get your information from, but it is incorrect.
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Old 12-27-2006, 03:22 PM   #48
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

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Old 12-28-2006, 04:57 AM   #49
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

Quote:
Originally Posted by A2gt35r
BTW. I know the skunk motor was sold to a local near me & didn't make near the power of the CM all motor cars are. !
Hmmm, where are you?
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Old 12-28-2006, 10:59 AM   #50
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

boy this thread took a turn for the worse...

didn't Chris Dye buy/run a Skunk2 built motor for about 2 secs?
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Old 12-28-2006, 11:17 AM   #51
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

I read this interview where he was complaining about the motor he got from skunk2. Not sure if he paid for it though because he mentions that they were asking for the money and blamed him for it... The way I see it, there is no warranty on a race motor so I do think that if you are naive enough to buy a used race motor, what you get is what you get...

http://urbanracer.com/articles/anmviewer.asp?a=2072

June 3
I tear the motor down and am amazed at the damage. Just about everything in the motor is damaged beyond repair. The only good parts I find are some sensors, the rocker arm assembly (which is not theirs since they sent the wrong one anyway), and camshafts which I don't even want. When I am tearing it down, I do find one thing that really bothers me; the motor was running aluminum rods. The motor was advertised as having steel rods, and I was told, when I asked for confirmation of this prior to agreeing to purchase it, that it was running steel rods. This is a big deal, aluminum rods stretch over time because aluminum is a soft metal. The longer you use them the longer they stretch when you are running the motor. I, personally, wouldn't use aluminum rods in any motor that I build and I would never have purchased this motor if I would have known it was using aluminum rods. Based on the damage in the motor it appears the piston made contact with the valves and those valves bouncing around in the motor caused the motor to eat itself up. After talking with some other engine builders, they too feel that the rods did stretch, causing the piston to hit the valves. What caused it to stretch is up for debate. One idea is that the piston hung up in a groove in the cylinder wall because it was run with low oil pressure for so long. Another theory is that the rods were past their life span and stretched under load, causing the pistons and valves to make contact. No matter the cause, everything in the motor is destroyed and I feel pretty misled and exhausted. I have now invested over 225 hours into the motor and have nothing but junk.

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Old 12-28-2006, 12:07 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmsii

That is why I think IPS or hytech have the best cam for me. Because they can make me whatever suits my needs best. WE HAVE MEASURED THOSE CAMS AS WELL AS THE CAMS OF MANY OTHER COMPANIES. I AM CURIOUS AS TO WHAT YOU FIND SO EXCEPTIONAL ABOUT THOSE CAMS? I KNOW THEY ARE TWICE AS MUCH AS SKUNK CAMS. WE HAVE ALSO FOUND PLENTY OF ANAMOLIES WITH BOTH OF THOSE CAMS. FURTHERMORE, NEITHER OF THOSE COMPANIES DESIGN, MEASURE, OR DYNOTEST THEIR CAMS IN HOUSE, SO HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT THEY COULD DELIVER THE BEST CAM FOR YOUR ENGINE? IT’S INTERESTING THAT YOU DIDN’T MENTION ANY OF THE CAMS OR COMPANIES THAT I WOULD CONSIDER BEING SOME OF THE BEST.

which of hytech's & IPS's cams have you measured - as there are many different profiles? Most importantly what anamolies did you find & with whose cams

did you actually test those cams vs skunk2 cams or just "measure" them - please clarify
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Old 12-28-2006, 12:44 PM   #53
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

you guys have way too much time to be talking on the internet. IMPORT BUILDERS SUCK
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Old 12-28-2006, 12:59 PM   #54
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

I feel that a lot of people here are biased against skunk2's products...
I am sorry but this is the first impression that a newby gets after reading at specific threads. I feel that this is a Skunk2 vs the world thing here!
It is common sense that Skunk2 builds perhaps the best cams out there but again i will not be sure of this until i have some dyno reports.

Is there anyone with an experience and dyno charts for both skunk2 cams vs anything else?
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Old 12-28-2006, 01:15 PM   #55
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

wow this is getting crazy in here .. I was just asking a simple question.. Best cam for you buck..
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Old 12-28-2006, 02:59 PM   #56
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekasey
If you are going to publically call names of ppl then make sure you're correct in your statements.

Casey Heerman
Ch Motorsports Engineering

AKA Lackey Inc.
There wasn't any name calling. No where in describing that incident were any names mentioned. However, since you responded as personally as you did, i guess what i said was true.

as for you being the header expert....the header specs we use are no where close to what you recommended. unless you consider +/- 2" in length and +/- 1/8" in diameter close...
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Old 12-28-2006, 03:04 PM   #57
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

nikos- why are you always bringing stuff up second hand? you know nothing about the whole club rsx situation, chris cannot even talk about it, so how can you get the correct information. we have all the emails between skunk2 and clubrsx if we ever need to disprove your gossip.

but there are versions of the exact same engine configuration out there that are running plenty strong.
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Old 12-28-2006, 03:08 PM   #58
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6spd_EK
which of hytech's & IPS's cams have you measured - as there are many different profiles? Most importantly what anamolies did you find & with whose cams

did you actually test those cams vs skunk2 cams or just "measure" them - please clarify
don't think its proper to drag that out in public. i could explain some of those things to you via PM if you wish.
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Old 12-28-2006, 03:13 PM   #59
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

don't know why you guys are trying to make this ugly. its like dr. race says...people are trying to make this a skunk2 vs. the world thread.

hopefully there are people out there that are just interested in learning without having cut through the politics of this board. wouldn't they be better served if everyone just posted objective information and results as opposed to heresay and gossip?
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Old 12-28-2006, 05:06 PM   #60
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Default Re: What the best cam your buck??

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmsii
i'll put up some dyno graphs of skunk2 vs. other
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmsii
wouldn't they be better served if everyone just posted objective information and results as opposed to heresay and gossip?
Quit talkin. Let's see some data.
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