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Old 09-19-2007, 05:23 PM   #1
Buitrex
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Default Dual VTC

I was wondering if anyone has thought about this?? Using two VTC cam gears, one for intake and one for exhasut.
That would require the following
- extra wiring with a plug to the vtc solenoid
- modifying the head to accept another vtc solenoid,
- veriffy the oil passages can be added in order to route the oil as required
- Somehow add the vtc control to the ecu

Tunning would be easy, just perform extra dyno runs with different combination of degrees on each vtc gear to get the optimized tuning and gear degrees. Just like tunning with one adjustable gear.

I wonder if major performance gains would be seen torque or hp wise in the lower rpm ranges, i guess in all ranges it should be seen.

Would like input and thoughts. I know it would require lots of work and fabrication but lets entertain the idea. Someone might have the money some day to do it in a honda. I think Nissan has dual vtc on an engine.
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Old 09-19-2007, 05:31 PM   #2
signalpuke
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Default Re: Dual VTC

I was looking at this as well. It would be great for turbo applications.
One idea I had yesterday was use Honda's VTC type cam phasing, or Denso's new DC operated module from the Lexus LS460 and the Nissan's new CVTCS system on the exhaust side. The Denso unit can work at lower operating temperatures and is not reliant on oil feed, making design easier. The CVTCS system is also DC powered, and due to the nature of the non-rotating cam-on-bucket design it can be modified to create I-EGR to work with a HCCI deisel engine at lower RPM, allowing it to go from HCCI at lower RPM w/I-EGR to a standard compression ignition motor.
Some good sources of info regarding what I am talking about can be found here:
http://www.mechadyne-int.com/
http://www.mechadyne-int.com/vva-ref...vva-system.pdf
http://www.mechadyne-int.com/vva-ref...chnologies.pdf
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Old 09-19-2007, 05:44 PM   #3
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Default Re: Dual VTC

Nice info. You are way ahead of my thinking. If you eliminate the oil feed that is one step ahead. I guess it could be controlled individually aside and not have anything to do with the ecu running the engine. The tuner would just have to write down at what cam angle he is performing the dyno run each time. Well, thinking about it there should be some input coming from the ecu running the engine that can tell the other vtc to change depending the rpms.

Lets keep the info and ideas coming
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Old 09-19-2007, 05:53 PM   #4
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Default Re: Dual VTC

There really needs to be a reason for the exhaust side to have a variable phase function. On the intake you can change the dynamic compression and overlap, so those are already taken care of. On the exhaust you would either be holding the burning mix longer or shorter period ot time.
Holding the pressure longer would be good at lower RPM for higher MEP/I-EGR/Faster engine warm-up. The down sides would be Cat light-up (bad for emmisions) and higher stress.
Releasing the charge sooner would have the opposite effect and would good for turbo spool. That is why I was thinking that the two systems working together would be great for the HCCI concept.
It is a really complex system, controlling it electronically is probably the easier part of the R&D, blowing up motors and spending on the test equipment will take a lot of $crilla though.
The HCCI seems like the result of that fabled "Hot-Vapour" motor...
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Old 09-19-2007, 07:20 PM   #5
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Default Re: Dual VTC

you have to be really carefull with dual vtc, cuz you run into valve to valve clearance issues.

you can only go so much before the intake and exhaust valve touches each other.
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Old 09-19-2007, 07:37 PM   #6
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Default Re: Dual VTC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buitrex View Post
I was wondering if anyone has thought about this?? Using two VTC cam gears, one for intake and one for exhasut.
That would require the following
- extra wiring with a plug to the vtc solenoid
- modifying the head to accept another vtc solenoid,
- veriffy the oil passages can be added in order to route the oil as required
- Somehow add the vtc control to the ecu

Tunning would be easy, just perform extra dyno runs with different combination of degrees on each vtc gear to get the optimized tuning and gear degrees. Just like tunning with one adjustable gear.

I wonder if major performance gains would be seen torque or hp wise in the lower rpm ranges, i guess in all ranges it should be seen.

Would like input and thoughts. I know it would require lots of work and fabrication but lets entertain the idea. Someone might have the money some day to do it in a honda. I think Nissan has dual vtc on an engine.
I had that idea. I'd only got as far as thinking as you did. Signalpuke is way ahead apparently. But then the costs and experimentation would be really high. It'd be cool, but I don't think it would be worthwhile. Dual I-vtec would be so cool to say though! Dual vvti? huh? DUAL I-VTEC BITCH! (Sorry my rice side is coming out).
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Old 09-20-2007, 04:20 PM   #7
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Default Re: Dual VTC

I am betting that using cam phasing on the exhaust side will not yeild as much of a benefit for the complexity that it will require for our applications. For something like a 50kW generator I think that it would be worth it, they run at one of two RPM depending on the number of cylinders and the needs of the power source (50~60Hz). Using VTC on the intake side and VVt on the exhaust side can allow the engine to run at peak efficiency at all elevations. There will be less demand on the system to change in order for it to adapt. They can be run at steady load and temperature.
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Old 09-20-2007, 07:59 PM   #8
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Default Re: Dual VTC

Quote:
Originally Posted by signalpuke View Post
I am betting that using cam phasing on the exhaust side will not yeild as much of a benefit for the complexity that it will require for our applications. For something like a 50kW generator I think that it would be worth it, they run at one of two RPM depending on the number of cylinders and the needs of the power source (50~60Hz). Using VTC on the intake side and VVt on the exhaust side can allow the engine to run at peak efficiency at all elevations. There will be less demand on the system to change in order for it to adapt. They can be run at steady load and temperature.
Works real well for Toyota dual vvti. Beams 3s-ge. Not sure about after modding and tuning if it's as worthwhile.
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Old 09-21-2007, 10:29 AM   #9
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Default Re: Dual VTC

aem ems can control dual vtc no problem... so getting it workign shouldnt be an issue.
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:38 PM   #10
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Default Re: Dual VTC

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Originally Posted by RsxJai View Post
Works real well for Toyota dual vvti. Beams 3s-ge. Not sure about after modding and tuning if it's as worthwhile.
I said our application, I should have said mine. I have neither the budget nor the knowledge to tackle playing with the idea of a dynamicaly changing intake and exhaust cam phasing. Finding the correct intake cam phasing at 1000 RPM increments at different MAP values across my RPM band is enough for me. Tuning the intake side of the motor for the best initial filling from overlap, continuation as the piston drops back down, and ramming before the valves close is more important to me at the moment than how best to empty the cylinder.
You can only make as much power as the motor can ingest.
If I was only concerned with a limited portion of the MAP values (idle and WOT) or the 30% of the power band I rarely use (6000-9000RPM) then I would be keen on playing with more variables. If the motor was to only run at one of two different RPM (like a generator) then I would certainly play with the idea of mapping the intake and exhaust cam phasing for different MAP values and temperatures.
For now a static exhaust valve timing event is enough fun for me.
Changing the rate of blowdown and the pumping loss/piston cushion, as well as implementing the physical design would be very difficult, in my opinion, to successfully incorporate into the current K motor over it's normal operating range.
The time and cost would not be worth the gain. It would be more economical to start with an engine that meets the power requirements in the first place and modify the package it is contained in (read: buy a different chassis ;p ).
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Old 09-21-2007, 02:52 PM   #11
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Default Re: Dual VTC

Quote:
Originally Posted by wadzii View Post
aem ems can control dual vtc no problem... so getting it workign shouldnt be an issue.
EMS has VTC 1 and VTC 2 tables. When I was working at AEM we sold these 30-1040 boxes to a company in Huntington Beach (Evosports) and they were putting them on BMW's and controlling the Vanos Systems. We were told that their race car made another 100 hp over the previous race map... so I'm sure power is to be had...
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Old 09-21-2007, 06:53 PM   #12
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Default Re: Dual VTC

being able to change exhaust cam timing can make huge power gains as well, not just the intake. By retarding ex cam timing, you hold the cylinder burn longer thus more torque. advancing the exhaust cam helps in higher RPMs where you do not have enough time to evacuate the cylinder before the intake valve starts to open. at this point there is enough positive pressure in the cylinder to allow exhaust gasses to travel back up through the intake valves.by advancing the exhaust you allow more time to get the gasses out. this holds true to a lot of turbo cars under boost at high rpm because of exhaust backpressure.

if there was a way to do dual VTC that would be the shit.

has anyone played with an exhaust cam gear to see how much power can be made? i think you'd be suprised.

the big issue would be valve to valve clearance. you would have to clay the motor at all VTC points and map out what advance/ retard you can run without interference problems.
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Old 09-21-2007, 07:56 PM   #13
RsxJai
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Default Re: Dual VTC

Quote:
Originally Posted by signalpuke View Post
I said our application, I should have said mine. I have neither the budget nor the knowledge to tackle playing with the idea of a dynamicaly changing intake and exhaust cam phasing. Finding the correct intake cam phasing at 1000 RPM increments at different MAP values across my RPM band is enough for me. Tuning the intake side of the motor for the best initial filling from overlap, continuation as the piston drops back down, and ramming before the valves close is more important to me at the moment than how best to empty the cylinder.
You can only make as much power as the motor can ingest.
If I was only concerned with a limited portion of the MAP values (idle and WOT) or the 30% of the power band I rarely use (6000-9000RPM) then I would be keen on playing with more variables. If the motor was to only run at one of two different RPM (like a generator) then I would certainly play with the idea of mapping the intake and exhaust cam phasing for different MAP values and temperatures.
For now a static exhaust valve timing event is enough fun for me.
Changing the rate of blowdown and the pumping loss/piston cushion, as well as implementing the physical design would be very difficult, in my opinion, to successfully incorporate into the current K motor over it's normal operating range.
The time and cost would not be worth the gain. It would be more economical to start with an engine that meets the power requirements in the first place and modify the package it is contained in (read: buy a different chassis ;p ).
Haha yeah I know what you mean. Just wait for Honda to release one.
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Old 09-22-2007, 09:55 AM   #14
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Default Re: Dual VTC

Quote:
Originally Posted by eK24monster View Post
EMS has VTC 1 and VTC 2 tables. When I was working at AEM we sold these 30-1040 boxes to a company in Huntington Beach (Evosports) and they were putting them on BMW's and controlling the Vanos Systems. We were told that their race car made another 100 hp over the previous race map... so I'm sure power is to be had...
yeah but technically they only needed it because its a v8 and there are two Vanos valves because of 2 intake cams... the vanos do not effect the exhaust cams....
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Old 09-22-2007, 02:31 PM   #15
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Default Re: Dual VTC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uneek4L View Post
yeah but technically they only needed it because its a v8 and there are two Vanos valves because of 2 intake cams... the vanos do not effect the exhaust cams....


BMW new 2008 m3
It's equipped with variable double-Vanos camshaft control which reduces losses in the charge cycle, thus improving power and torque

Low-Pressure VANOS

Unlike the BMW M5 and BMW M6 high-pressure VANOS (variable valve lift and timing) systems, the low-pressure VANOS system of this V8 uses a double (not single) chain to connect the crankshaft and cam sprocket. The cam sprocket connects to the camshaft with a step motor, not helical gearing.

This low-pressure M double-VANOS runs with regular engine oil pressure on the step motor. This eliminates the separate high-pressure system of the V10s.

The intake cam can vary up to 58 and the exhaust cam up to 48. Maximum rate of crank angle adjustment is 360 per second
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Old 09-24-2007, 04:31 AM   #16
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Default Re: Dual VTC

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Originally Posted by Uneek4L View Post
yeah but technically they only needed it because its a v8 and there are two Vanos valves because of 2 intake cams... the vanos do not effect the exhaust cams....
not true.. many of the newer I6 engines use double vanos
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