Made in Taiwan vs Made in the USA - Page 3 - K20A.org .:. The K Series Source . Honda / Acura K20a k24a Engine Forum
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Old 06-15-2007, 01:44 AM   #41
signalpuke
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Default Re: Made in Taiwan vs Made in the USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by RsxJai
Eh I say you know what you're getting into when you're buying the cams anyways. A few pictures doesn't determine how well cams are made. Are the machines the same ones they use in the US? Are the materials the same? The only real problem is quality control, which can't be told just from a few pictures. And GMSII said it very nicely. At least no one came in here trying to say domestic cars aren't as reliable and are built in the U.S as an counter argument to all the China/Taiwan judgement.
I agree. With the precise control we need in our motors a mediocre cam will not suffice. On a 20 year old SOHC, sure, there is not as tight a margin for error.
I can only imagine how hard quality control is, I have a hard enough time trying to call back to the states to talk to my family, imagine trying to get ahold of the guy running a business in another country.
QC has not changed overnight from the D and B-series motors, it is the same, we just see it now with the K.
I know of a handful of K motors that have destructed due to cams. Whether it was a bad batch, or just a couple that slipped through the cracks, who knows.
The point is what measures are in place to prevent this from happening.
What is in place to create true core repeatability?
Are the cores cut in the states or is that outsourced as well?
Maintenance on these machines?
There are plenty of ways to make a cam stronger, V8 guys just make the journals bigger to reduce deflection. We do not have that luxory. We have to improve on the physical properties of the material the blank will be made of and the goemetric repeatability of the lobes.

This reminds me of Tyler Durden on Fight Club talking about the A+B+C=X formula for a recall on a vehicle
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Old 06-15-2007, 08:08 AM   #42
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Default Re: Made in Taiwan vs Made in the USA

In the spring business most of the stuff you see from oversears is made from terrible materials, the designs are overstressed and the qc is extremely poor. The springs you see on the cheap, knockoff coilovers are probably $2-3 a piece.
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Old 06-15-2007, 08:52 AM   #43
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Default Re: Made in Taiwan vs Made in the USA

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Originally Posted by vtecvoodoo
In the spring business most of the stuff you see from oversears is made from terrible materials, the designs are overstressed and the qc is extremely poor. The springs you see on the cheap, knockoff coilovers are probably $2-3 a piece.
i don't think you can generalize like that.
its up to the buyer to specify what his standards are.

if a buyer specifies a sae9254 material, and requires that the spring complies with BS class A racing specifications interms of grinding and perpendicularity, and have a certain range of acceptable load loss or height loss after x number of compressions at y amount of stroke, and that the spring can withstand z number of hours of salt spray testing.. and you specify that all materials are certified and 100% eddy current inspected prior to coiling...etc....

if the supplier can comply with your requirements, then it really doesn't matter whether its made. and if you can buy what you want spec out for $3 and not $5 dollars, then why wouldn't you?
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Old 06-15-2007, 09:25 AM   #44
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Default Re: Made in Taiwan vs Made in the USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by signalpuke
The point is what measures are in place to prevent this from happening.
What is in place to create true core repeatability?
Are the cores cut in the states or is that outsourced as well?
Maintenance on these machines?
Some of you guys are just comepletely missing the point... I'm not talking specifically about you signal just wanted to use your quote to get the point across.

The original thread was started concerning quality of a product made oversees... I ca't say weather it was originally intended to compare any specific companies or not since I didn't start it...

But the point is

A. what measures will prevent bad production from happening?
It doesn't matter weather your stuff is made in the US or Taiwan, the people that are responcible for quality is the people who are contracting the foundry to make the parts. The company that choose's the given foundry and the given materials. It is not the Taiwanese foundry that is deciding what to make the cams out of, it's the company ordering them...


B. what is in place to repeat true core repeatability

depending on the company that is contracting the work once again... There are facilities in Asia and all across the world that have the same technology that we have here in the states, there are also plenty of them that don't. You are going to pay more as a contractor to the company that has the better facilities and better technology, your going to get a better part, is it worth it to the company ordering the items is the question? Do they want to pay for the better quality and only save $2 per item processing it oversee's at a higher quality level instead of $4 per item and processing it at some lower level of quality.

C. Is the cores cut in the states or outsourced as well?

Per any given company it could be different. There are huge numbers of business that are outsourcing work simply because there is the capability to have things done just as well outside the country for less money. There are a few industries that don't outsource for a few reasons. Some people do things that no one else in the world knows how to do (so we are not going to show them how), some people just don't like going through the hassle of demanding the same quality they would expect from a US manufacturer because any issues will take at least 3-4 times the time it would take to resolve if the company were here in the states, and some people just want to try and help support the US economy and just won't outsource no matter what.

D. maintnance on the machines?

Again my simple point... The quality is available oversee's if the company buying the product wants to find it, make sure it is up to standard, and pay for it. If you get a shitty part it because thats what the company paid to madd produce, if you get a good quality part it's because the company took the time to find the right people to make it the right way and tehy paid what it cost to get it done the way they wanted (weather it be here or oversees)...


I work in a faciltiy that produces parts everyday. Some of the people I work with I wouldn't trust to make my lunch, but I have faith in the process in which we produce things and even if someone makes a mistake there are 40 people waiting to check his shit and let him know before that part goes anywhere... we like to say it's not a bad part if it doesn't make it off the line. It's only bad if it makes it all the way to the customer...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.E.G.
think about what you are saying here. educated people are saying that some portions of this safety device are in direct conflict with this little thing called physics and you are willing to ignore that simply because of the cage builders reputation? that sounds like religion to me. welcome to the church of fanboyology.
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Old 06-15-2007, 10:03 AM   #45
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Default Re: Made in Taiwan vs Made in the USA

Companies do not go there to find better quality but to make more money even though quality is affected. They are willing to overlook and justify the shortcomings because they are making way more profit with the cheaper material.

Are we outsourcing technical support to india because they are better or because they are cheaper?

What is also happening and the same factory that is making stuff for A racing, also makes stuff for B racing and C racing... The only difference is the packaging... So check this out.. this is where it get interesting...

You have companies A , B and C competing in the USA market selling basically the same part... And then you have another company D... which is the taiwanese company that makes the parts for a , b and c competing with the same people that buy their own parts from that company... LMAO

This is how it is and I doubt it will never change. Massproduction is taking place in china.. that is where most things sold in walmart are now made...

I remember reading an article about some chinese workers making fun of americans because of this product they were making.. that help us squeeze out the last drop of a used toothpaste... lol

I don't even want to start talking about creation of american jobs etc...We should be able to complete, people say... but getting paid $50/month is another story...
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Old 06-15-2007, 10:13 AM   #46
Rick Solis
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Default Re: Made in Taiwan vs Made in the USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmsii
i don't think you can generalize like that.
its up to the buyer to specify what his standards are.

if a buyer specifies a sae9254 material, and requires that the spring complies with BS class A racing specifications interms of grinding and perpendicularity, and have a certain range of acceptable load loss or height loss after x number of compressions at y amount of stroke, and that the spring can withstand z number of hours of salt spray testing.. and you specify that all materials are certified and 100% eddy current inspected prior to coiling...etc....

if the supplier can comply with your requirements, then it really doesn't matter whether its made. and if you can buy what you want spec out for $3 and not $5 dollars, then why wouldn't you?
My brothers company deals exclusively with supension components. He has been in the development stages for nearly 2 years now. The company he works with to produce his parts (shocks/springs) has allowed his to make all sorts of changes in materials selection, internal parts, shock oils, spring types, etc. Keep in mind, suspension is his forte, definitely not mine. Im a beginner when it comes to that stuff so if i sound like a newbie talking about it, you know why

But the point Im getting at, he could have coilovers made for $150-$300 per set if he were just interested in profit margins. But that is not his intention. Quality and performance are his main focuses and for what he is doing, he is PAYING A TON to have everything manufactured to the standard in which he would like his company to be known for. The manufactuer is very open to doing anything in which you as the hiring company are willing/wanting to do. It makes no difference to them, they are going to make their margins regardless of what the final product is going to cost you. The main difference being, most companies who are contracting overseas manufacturers are not willing to fork out the cash. In this case, my brother insists upon it. That is a very rare occurance and as i said before, .03 out of 10 people are going to go that route. Myself, my brother and a handfull of others in this industry choose to do so. Its a shame that the rest of the industries private companies dont see things the same way. It gives overseas manufacturers a bad rep that is not deservant at all.
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Old 06-15-2007, 10:18 AM   #47
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Default Re: Made in Taiwan vs Made in the USA

So Nikos, do you agree or disagree.....

It is very possible to have quality parts produced in china/taiwan if you are willing to pay the extra cost of better materials and take sole control over quality control.
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Old 06-15-2007, 10:21 AM   #48
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Default Re: Made in Taiwan vs Made in the USA

People think that quantity is synonomous with quality, but the reality is that mass production typically leads to more uniform products and have more stringent checks to prevent the defective items from slipping past.

The Taiwanese and Chinese industry is just as capable as the mighty U.S. machine. Take a look at most of your electronics, computers chips, memory (ram, flash, etc), clothing, all the way up to car parts. All this is done with highly skilled labour, and much lower prices.

The mandate of Capitalism is driven by profiteering. Any company that can cut its production costs by any margin and all the while still produce quality products, wins. Period.

The reality of the situation is, is that, we can't judge a country's industry or a foundry just based on some untimely pictures that I'm sure don't show a complete, and accurate picture.
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Old 06-15-2007, 10:21 AM   #49
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Default Re: Made in Taiwan vs Made in the USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikos
Companies do not go there to find better quality but to make more money even though quality is affected. They are willing to overlook and justify the shortcomings because they are making way more profit with the cheaper material.
Companies do not outsource to get better quality this is true, they outsource because it is cheaper. The thing is you can outsource, have it be cheaper than a US based supplier, and still get quality. Most often times though in search of every last dollar profit most companies who outsource will get it cheaper, and not worry so much about quality and get it even cheaper because they are just worried about the profit.

You can outsource and still get quality, the choice is up to the company getting the work done. They are the ones who are putting there name on it and selling to the public, they are responcible for the quality...

it's the "they" in your sentance that are responcible, not the Taiwanese manufacturer. The guys in Taiwan are just making what was ordered. You order something of better quality and they can make it. You just have to ask for it, and pay for it, even though it will still be cheaper than being done in the US it won't be the absolute cheapest which is all that some want. Skunk doesn't smelter or grind there own cams do they? Nighther does IPS...
But they both choose who does do them, and by doing so they are both choosing the quality of there product... They are the ones telling the foundry or the machine shop or whatever what they want...

Control is with the company designing/contracting the manufacturing/selling the final product. That is who is responcible for the quality of teh product they are selling
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.E.G.
think about what you are saying here. educated people are saying that some portions of this safety device are in direct conflict with this little thing called physics and you are willing to ignore that simply because of the cage builders reputation? that sounds like religion to me. welcome to the church of fanboyology.
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Old 06-15-2007, 10:39 AM   #50
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Default Re: Made in Taiwan vs Made in the USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by jon v
Companies do not outsource to get better quality this is true, they outsource because it is cheaper. The thing is you can outsource, have it be cheaper than a US based supplier, and still get quality. Most often times though in search of every last dollar profit most companies who outsource will get it cheaper, and not worry so much about quality and get it even cheaper because they are just worried about the profit.

You can outsource and still get quality, the choice is up to the company getting the work done. They are the ones who are putting there name on it and selling to the public, they are responcible for the quality...

it's the "they" in your sentance that are responcible, not the Taiwanese manufacturer. The guys in Taiwan are just making what was ordered. You order something of better quality and they can make it. You just have to ask for it, and pay for it, even though it will still be cheaper than being done in the US it won't be the absolute cheapest which is all that some want. Skunk doesn't smelter or grind there own cams do they? Nighther does IPS...
But they both choose who does do them, and by doing so they are both choosing the quality of there product... They are the ones telling the foundry or the machine shop or whatever what they want...

Control is with the company designing/contracting the manufacturing/selling the final product. That is who is responcible for the quality of teh product they are selling

I was going to try to say something like this when I came back, but your last few posts basically covered it all. It always comes down to how much you want to pay for what you get. Consumers and producers alike. Although I don't always think more expensive means more quality, but in the way we're talking about right now yeah.
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Old 06-15-2007, 11:18 AM   #51
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Default Re: Made in Taiwan vs Made in the USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmsii
amazing!....you can see "quality" and "price" all in a few pictures!!

let me tell you what i see, i see a machining area that has been planned to comply with some sort of quality standard whether it be ISO, TS, or QS. work areas are clean and organized and are clearly marked with signs. Work areas and traffic ways are clearly identified by different colored flooring.

as for the foundry....it looks like a foundry. when i worked in the aerospace industry, i had to qualify many factories to make sure they complied to our supplier qualification guidelines; guess what....they are all dirty. if you can find a squeeky clean foundry, you've found a foundry that has just been built and never been used. foundry work is a dirty job anywhere in the world and smaller parts are poured by hand.


for those of you who have ever dropped your car off at a shop, you'd be surprised what you would see when you leave LOL
there's this audio shop that i like, if i was to ever get audio work done by someone other than my friend, that i went to...to get my alarm installed. their work bay was borderline unacceptable, visually, but the workers there knew their shit and made sure they did a quality job. i trust them because my friend used to work there so i don't judge them on their workbay, but i do judge them on their work.
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Old 06-15-2007, 08:29 PM   #52
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Default Re: Made in Taiwan vs Made in the USA

Thanks for clearing that up for me Jon, crystal clear now
I agree, location does not matter when it come to quality.
But I feel that QC measures are easier to implement/manage on site, not over the phone.
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Old 06-28-2007, 03:05 PM   #53
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i do not think that it looks like that bad of quality at all

everything looks pretty crappy when it is first cast and just cut out the mold with all of the runners and whatnot still attached.

im sure they look pretty good when they are finished. still not near top of the line, but they look pretty good IMO. the molds are getting properly filled and there are no holes. just hope that there are no air bubbles in there
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Old 06-29-2007, 08:20 AM   #54
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Default Re: Made in Taiwan vs Made in the USA

i've heard just as many, if not more, stories of crower cams breaking..as i've heard overseas manufactured cams breaking.
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Old 07-01-2007, 08:28 PM   #55
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Must be just you.. I can tell the difference between a steak and a bigmac.. lol

And noone mentioned IPS or rcrew or CONAN THE BARBARIAN'S blacksmith for that matter.
Maybe it's just me but I'm sure I saw 2 snakes facing each other but they are 1. BTW how does the wind get in here? I sure don't know but I'll ask Crom.
Ron- Look black lotus stigion the best (IPS cams)
Me-This better not be haggar (dead deal)
Ron- I would sell hagar to a slayer such as yourself?
Me- What do they call you?
Ron- SuperLie, thief & archer
Me- Ha ha ha
Me- Behind the tower walls (web customers) is the serpents eye (our money).
Ron/Superlie-I'll be in & out faster then a camel can spit (Take money & deposit it in foreign accounts& lead us on).

He did not care for industry, but that he could rule with our money.
Crom told him of many who would never race, for his actions would crush industry.
I speak of the riddle of steal, but the snakes must have broken the riddle.

You kill my mother, you kill my father, you kill my people.
Ahh that must of been a time when I was younger.
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