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Snapped valve stem, Retainer/Cotter info

67K views 119 replies 40 participants last post by  Accordk24  
#1 ·
Man, sometimes I wonder if this hobby is worth it :(

I had my built engine with wisecos, ips ksc's and supertech valve springs + supertech valves installed a few weeks ago. Since then I've been driving on a relatively conservative tune with good air fuel ratios to break in the motor with hardish driving at <6000rpm with occasional half-throttle sprints to 7000rpm (around 500-600 miles driving on the new motor).

Yesterday evening I was just cruising long distance between two cities at about ~55-60mph off-vtec on sixth gear when suddenly the engine experienced a slight loss of power and then immediately stalled when I lifted off the gas. I called a tow truck to bring it back home.. I could start it but the engine would only run on three cylinders :(

I immediately did a compression test and found out that other cyls were OK but cylinder 4 had zero compression.. So I took the valve cover out and noticed that one of the cyl 4 intake valves was looking all funky. So I took the blower out and noticed that one of the flipping brand new supertech valves had snapped it's stem completely in half right below the valve cotters :mad: The rest of the valve had somehow lodged itself in the valve guide so that it doesn't move anymore but stays open slightly (not enough for the piston to hit it though). So most likely what has happened is that the valve stem has snapped on valve closure, then pushed back into the cylinder, then not coming back up (because the stem was cut lol) and then piston hitting it once bending the shaft and jamming it.

Now, I'm going to take the head off completely tomorrow (already took everything else but was missing the 12-point socket for ARP head studs). So, tomorrow I'll see how bad is the damage on the piston and the head itself..


My main wonder is that why the hell did this happen :confused: I had done a compression test before starting the engine for the first time as well as after about 100 miles of driving. At that point I also checked the valve clearance and all was well at that point and the engine felt strong for the first 500 miles at least.

Any ideas what went wrong or could it simply be a material fault in the new valve itself? I can fully understand if I did something wrong somewhere but would like to get some input what might be the root cause for this issue. I found one post from honda-tech where someone had also snapped supertech intake valve stem but there was really not much info there..
 
#7 ·
Re: Snapped supertech valve stem

k-dupelectriks said:
If you dont mind me asking...Who built this head/motor?
I did (well, all machining was done by a local shop).. So I wouldn't rule out installation error but I just can't understand what I could have done wrong. The cotters are still in place etc. So if you have good ideas what would be the error in installation here I would be more than happy to learn from such (if any) mistake :rolleyes:
 
#8 ·
Re: Snapped supertech valve stem

ouch...
 
#9 ·
Re: Snapped supertech valve stem

We need to find out what kinf of valve did you have.. Discuss this with supertech.. There are 2 kinds.

There is one where the valve is made of two metals.. the tip and the stem
and they are sonically welded. That could fail.

There is a also a pure stainless valve...

Post which part you got so that we can investigate
 
#114 ·
Re: Snapped supertech valve stem

We need to find out what kinf of valve did you have.. Discuss this with supertech.. There are 2 kinds.

There is one where the valve is made of two metals.. the tip and the stem
and they are sonically welded. That could fail.

There is a also a pure stainless valve...

Post which part you got so that we can investigate
Some good news at least.. the piston only has a very minor scratch on top of it.. no real dent even. I guess the dropped valve remains have hit it only once when I was driving (luckily) on part-throttle @ 2500rpm.. and then jammed in to the valve guide..

Still wondering what went wrong though.. I'm guessing some problem in the tempering of the valve or it has taken damage on installation or during transit from USA to Finland (since Supertech doesn't pack their valves in boxes which is clearly not the right thing to do imo)
 
#10 ·
Re: Snapped supertech valve stem

Some good news at least.. the piston only has a very minor scratch on top of it.. no real dent even. I guess the dropped valve remains have hit it only once when I was driving (luckily) on part-throttle @ 2500rpm.. and then jammed in to the valve guide..

Still wondering what went wrong though.. I'm guessing some problem in the tempering of the valve or it has taken damage on installation or during transit from USA to Finland (since Supertech doesn't pack their valves in boxes which is clearly not the right thing to do imo) :mad:
 
#11 ·
Re: Snapped supertech valve stem

nikos said:
We need to find out what kinf of valve did you have.. Discuss this with supertech.. There are 2 kinds.

There is one where the valve is made of two metals.. the tip and the stem
and they are sonically welded. That could fail.

There is a also a pure stainless valve...

Post which part you got so that we can investigate
I'll try to find out but it's probably not easy.. It was almost a year ago when I bought these valves I recall from suprfast along with some other stuff (head gasket, ARP head studs etc). It took this long for me to get the whole engine built and installed due to the Moto-C episode :down: and waiting for the KSc's to arrive.

Do you have some good contacts to Supertech, I could possibly ship the remains of the valve to them and/or take pictures?

The valve stem has snapped exactly below the valve cotters.
 
#13 ·
Re: Snapped supertech valve stem

Yea we know to know about these SUpertech snapping my friend blew 3 motors same thing kept happening stem snapped off on all 3 motors he was really unhappy camper with all that money he spent during them couple months........Nikos is probably rigth about them having 2 kind of valves .....looks like my friend kept buying the one with the 2piece....
 
#15 ·
Re: Snapped supertech valve stem

Slociviccoupe said:
just because the valves are stainless doesn't make them stronger. Sorry about your luck.

no, but being a one piece unit compared to a multi piece fused unit should make it stronger...
 
#17 ·
Re: Snapped supertech valve stem

i dont no i guess every valve is different i heard of problems with stock an super tech valves but never had a problem with them on B an K
 
#18 ·
Re: Snapped supertech valve stem

There isn't a whole lot that can be messed up installing a valve.
1. Spring seats installed
2. Springs in right side up (if designed to fit only one way.)
3. Retainer in place properly
4. Keepers fully seated

Have to check the bulletin from Honda on the two different keepers issue with the newer style not compatible with the older parts.

Have to check which keeper the supertechs are made for.

Have to be sure lash is right

Two piece valve stems make alarms go off in my head. Sonic welding - I thought that was only effective for non ferrous metals.

Please post a pic of the break, as close and sharp and clear as possible
 
#19 ·
Re: Snapped supertech valve stem

A2gt35r said:
What keepers did you use? 02 to 04 are different then 05+. It sounds like an install error.
I used the older style keepers and OEM dished retainers as well (going for longevity and did not think TI-retainers were worth the possible wear & tear):

14765-PRB-A01 - dished retainer
14781-PR7-A01 - keeper

These are the valve springs that I got from the KSc group buy:

Image


I'll get pics up later today of the damage.

My biggest problem in getting the car back on the road is where the hell am I going to get a 87mm head gasket in a hurry (K20A2 bottom end bored to 87mm).

EDIT: I found some info that the TSX K24 head gasket should work just fine with the 87mm bore k20a2 also
 
#21 ·
Re: Snapped supertech valve stem

A2gt35r said:
Those retainers weren't designed to handle the spring rate. I think you answered your question!
Go to Acura & buy a tsx head gasket $67.
Interesting opinion for sure, but what does that have to do with the valve snapping? I know people have been using these said steel retainers (and sometimes recommending them over TI-alternatives) with after market cams and springs all the time :confused: Thanks :)
 
#23 ·
Re: Snapped supertech valve stem

Interesting. I just got a set of supertech valves. These are the part #'s I have

HIVN-1020D - all intake valves share this part number
HEVN-1020 - all exhaust valves share this part number

The are all dished top valves, including the exhaust.

did you carefully clean each cotter/valvestem tip before installing? Having any grit or sand in there could contribute to early failure. I checked a couple of my supertech valves with a magnet and found that they were weakly magnetic from head to the tip of the stem. I kind of wish that I had checked all of them.

I know that the OEM intake valves are strongly magnetic head to tip. The exhaust valves have a weakly magnetic head but a strongly magnetic tip. You can see where the two different metals are fused halfway up the stem.

Anyhow, hope I don't encounter any issues with the supertech, but I have nearly 1k miles on them already with numerous trips to 9000rpm and no problems.
 
#24 ·
Re: Snapped supertech valve stem

Theta said:
I used the older style keepers and OEM dished retainers as well (going for longevity and did not think TI-retainers were worth the possible wear & tear):

14765-PRB-A01 - dished retainer
14781-PR7-A01 - keeper
You should not have used the pr7 cotter/keeper. You should have used the prb-a01 or prb-a02 cotter. The pr7 was designed for the flat retainers in the earlier model rsx heads. When the dished retainer was introduced the cotters were changed as well.

Unfortunately if cotter/retainer do not work together then you can end up with a dropped valve. So i wouldn't point the finger at supertech. I would point it at the valvetrain.
 
#25 ·
Re: Snapped supertech valve stem

A2gt35r said:
Those retainers weren't designed to handle the spring rate. I think you answered your question!
Go to Acura & buy a tsx head gasket $67.
Those retainers can handle his supertech's just fine... They are even weaker than the eibach evs' which is a known good combo with the OEM dished retainers.

http://www.k20a.org/forum/showpost.php?p=254777&postcount=9
 
#26 ·
Re: Snapped supertech valve stem

kommon_sense said:
You should not have used the pr7 cotter/keeper. You should have used the prb-a01 or prb-a02 cotter. The pr7 was designed for the flat retainers in the earlier model rsx heads. When the dished retainer was introduced the cotters were changed as well.

Unfortunately if cotter/retainer do not work together then you can end up with a dropped valve. So i wouldn't point the finger at supertech. I would point it at the valvetrain.
Man, the keeper info then just keeps getting more confusing?! I'm sure you have seen all the crap about the new style keepers with different angle ratio and this is from one of the threads about it:

"part # 14781-PR7-A01 are a suitable replacement for the 14781-PRB-A01 which are no longer in production" and even a video! http://nytegrsx.com/files/keepers.wmv

I think the PR7 keepers are not at fault here since the keepers stayed just fine in place but the valve has snapped further down the stem.