Kelford 179a Dyno Testing... - Page 2 - K20A.org .:. The K Series Source . Honda / Acura K20a k24a Engine Forum
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-21-2012, 03:10 PM   #21
b.r.i.a.n.
K20a.org Basic User
 
b.r.i.a.n.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: south florida
Posts: 373
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by w00t692 View Post
I suspect... that this is the issue kelford keeps having with the 179-a's where people will get a set and they idle LIKE SHIT.

I've seen this on 8thcivic.com 2 times where people got a set of 179-a's that couldn't idle properly.

They idle well into load columns 5-6 sometimes 7 in flashpro manager.
i'm having this happen on a car right now lol. i tuned 2 other sets that idled just fine but this one set is pulling roughly 12 inches of vacuum at idle lol.
__________________
2003 Civic Si - k20A2 powered - 241 whp/166 tq - sold
2002 Grand Prix White S2000 - 234 whp/155 tq - E85 powered
b.r.i.a.n. is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 03-21-2012, 03:14 PM   #22
w00t692
K20a.org Master User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,059
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

Lol thanks. Haha
w00t692 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-21-2012, 05:24 PM   #23
katman
Lifetime Member
 
katman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: SoCAL
Posts: 1,278
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

cam trigger wheel alignment hole comparison...

Kelford...


OEM..



Signal,
here's some markings that may or may not mean something regarding their version/revision.

intake cam:



exhaust cam:

__________________
1 3 5
2 4 6 Zigen
RIP ADAM WEST
-----------------------
FF SQUAD | FFS TechNet | FFS Videos
katman is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-21-2012, 06:14 PM   #24
K20EF8
Lifetime Member
 
K20EF8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,423
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by katman View Post
cam trigger wheel alignment hole comparison...
Those look like 2 different trigger wheels..
Now that I look at it the hole location would have nothing to do with the cam... if the hole isnt aligned and the arrow is pointing exactly at the line, it wont matter what cam you use it never will... it means the hole isnt machined in the exact location on the wheel
K20EF8 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-21-2012, 06:43 PM   #25
katman
Lifetime Member
 
katman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: SoCAL
Posts: 1,278
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by K20EF8 View Post
Those look like 2 different trigger wheels..
Now that I look at it the hole location would have nothing to do with the cam... if the hole isnt aligned and the arrow is pointing exactly at the line, it wont matter what cam you use it never will... it means the hole isnt machined in the exact location on the wheel
its the same exact type of trigger wheel.
Its just that the upper photo of the trigger wheel is blown out from the camera flash, so it looks like its missing that "N" imprinted marking.

My take on it, is that the Kelford cam's woodruff key hole is off kilter by a couple ball hairs, thats why the wheels tdc hole doesn't line up, yet the VTC cam gear side of the cam lines up fine.
__________________
1 3 5
2 4 6 Zigen
RIP ADAM WEST
-----------------------
FF SQUAD | FFS TechNet | FFS Videos
katman is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-21-2012, 06:49 PM   #26
SickSilver_ep3
NA EK love
 
SickSilver_ep3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NW AR/IL
Posts: 3,271
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by w00t692 View Post
A guy with a stock k20z3 with bolt-ons just got his setup tuned and he has a before and after.

Here's the post with the dynograph. Dotted line is before, solid line is after.

Solid 13 whp gain over stock (218 -> 231)


http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/10435678-post65.html
doesnt seem too impressive. i had my k20a tuned at slow motion with blueprint stage 2's and corey managed 246whp 173wtq. and that was with a filter on the throttle body. on another dyno i picked up 5whp later with a 3 inch intake.

was a stock k20a, cams/srpings, rbc, dtr 4-2-1 and 3 inch exhaust on 93 octane.


heres how the intake was im not joking lol

__________________
96 midori EK All Motor Humble Tuned
Build thread / Prayoonto 2.6 403whp/234wtq
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=94487
SickSilver_ep3 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-21-2012, 07:54 PM   #27
98luder
Lifetime Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 387
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

oh man
damn you Kelford

Thanks for taking the time to share all the results of the testing.
Sorry to give you headaches man

Hopefully we hear from Kelford soon.
__________________
www.98luder.wordpress.com
bought from and can vouch for : rbsjnh, K20 n2o, RatataK26, faratim, Mo_Spec, 2420racing, circuit hero, 6spd_EK, CJM
bought from and didnt' recieve what i paid for and lost money k20z3si4dr
98luder is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-22-2012, 12:05 AM   #28
katman
Lifetime Member
 
katman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: SoCAL
Posts: 1,278
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

It's not your fault James!


/garage geek mode on

So, I was carefully eyeballing and comparing the Kel intake cam against an 06 TSX intake cam seeing if something sticks out like a sore thumb. I plugged both cams into a pair of VTC gears stood them up side by side (Kel left / TSX right); then had to figure out where the horizontal TDC marks would be on the reverse side of the cam gear for the TSX cam (which measured at approx. 11 teeth counting clockwise from top TDC dot down)...anyways...its looking like the Kel cam is about half a tooth too advanced.....if advanced is considered clockwise on a K-series (I always forget which way is advance/retard on a K lol). So, if there can be compensation in Kpro tuning throughout the map for however many degrees half a tooth equates to, then I think this cam trigger slight-off alignment issue may have a workaround. Though, I'm not sure if that'll fix the supposed crappy idling issue.
__________________
1 3 5
2 4 6 Zigen
RIP ADAM WEST
-----------------------
FF SQUAD | FFS TechNet | FFS Videos
katman is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-22-2012, 05:28 AM   #29
w00t692
K20a.org Master User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,059
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SickSilver_ep3 View Post
doesnt seem too impressive. i had my k20a tuned at slow motion with blueprint stage 2's and corey managed 246whp 173wtq. and that was with a filter on the throttle body. on another dyno i picked up 5whp later with a 3 inch intake.

was a stock k20a, cams/srpings, rbc, dtr 4-2-1 and 3 inch exhaust on 93 octane.


heres how the intake was im not joking lol

stage 2 cam on a k20a (11.5:1) vs drop in cam on a k20z3 (11:1) with a balance shaft oil pump that robs some horsepower, has full accessories (maybe your car doesn't maybe it does... but still)

13 whp is 13 whp.

Unless you meant k20a2 when you said that, but still... STAGE 2 CAM VS DROP IN CAM. This cam doesn't require a valvetrain, it doesn't require you to lower your rev limit either. You can safely rev it to 8800 on stock springs.
w00t692 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-22-2012, 05:30 AM   #30
w00t692
K20a.org Master User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,059
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by katman View Post
It's not your fault James!


/garage geek mode on

So, I was carefully eyeballing and comparing the Kel intake cam against an 06 TSX intake cam seeing if something sticks out like a sore thumb. I plugged both cams into a pair of VTC gears stood them up side by side (Kel left / TSX right); then had to figure out where the horizontal TDC marks would be on the reverse side of the cam gear for the TSX cam (which measured at approx. 11 teeth counting clockwise from top TDC dot down)...anyways...its looking like the Kel cam is about half a tooth too advanced.....if advanced is considered clockwise on a K-series (I always forget which way is advance/retard on a K lol). So, if there can be compensation in Kpro tuning throughout the map for however many degrees half a tooth equates to, then I think this cam trigger slight-off alignment issue may have a workaround. Though, I'm not sure if that'll fix the supposed crappy idling issue.
I believe you'd need a full standalone like a haltech/neptune/aem ems type unit to change something like that. Because with kpro the car is going to control the idle and it's out of your hands.
w00t692 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-22-2012, 07:14 AM   #31
WESTUP
K20a.org Basic User
 
WESTUP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: So Cal
Posts: 374
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by katman View Post
It's not your fault James!


/garage geek mode on

So, I was carefully eyeballing and comparing the Kel intake cam against an 06 TSX intake cam seeing if something sticks out like a sore thumb. I plugged both cams into a pair of VTC gears stood them up side by side (Kel left / TSX right); then had to figure out where the horizontal TDC marks would be on the reverse side of the cam gear for the TSX cam (which measured at approx. 11 teeth counting clockwise from top TDC dot down)...anyways...its looking like the Kel cam is about half a tooth too advanced.....if advanced is considered clockwise on a K-series (I always forget which way is advance/retard on a K lol). So, if there can be compensation in Kpro tuning throughout the map for however many degrees half a tooth equates to, then I think this cam trigger slight-off alignment issue may have a workaround. Though, I'm not sure if that'll fix the supposed crappy idling issue.
Sent ya a message

JW
WESTUP is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-22-2012, 07:14 AM   #32
katman
Lifetime Member
 
katman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: SoCAL
Posts: 1,278
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

The idle isn't a huge concern of mine as I'll be using these cams for only a short amount of time. I'm more concerned with the correction of the pre-set advancement of the cam and I just want what kinda power these against my previous cam tests.
__________________
1 3 5
2 4 6 Zigen
RIP ADAM WEST
-----------------------
FF SQUAD | FFS TechNet | FFS Videos
katman is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-22-2012, 07:17 AM   #33
nikos
K20a.org Master User
 
nikos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: here
Posts: 15,730
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

thank you Katman for taking the time to do this for all of us, we really appreciate it!
nikos is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-22-2012, 07:19 AM   #34
w00t692
K20a.org Master User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,059
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

Yeah it's pretty awesome how many cams you've tested.

It's nice to see what they all can do.
w00t692 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-22-2012, 07:27 AM   #35
WESTUP
K20a.org Basic User
 
WESTUP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: So Cal
Posts: 374
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

Seeing how the pulse plate is not in the correct position to have the timing spot on it will effect the outcome for sure, it will be tough to setup a map from scratch to correct the issue. The simple way around it is a cam gear but that eliminates the vtc all together.

JW
WESTUP is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-22-2012, 07:31 AM   #36
Vaikis_
K20a.org Basic User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 439
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

it would be nice to see how other 179a cam aligns..
Vaikis_ is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-22-2012, 07:46 AM   #37
katman
Lifetime Member
 
katman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: SoCAL
Posts: 1,278
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

No prob Nikos =D
Just doin my thang as K enthusiast.

JW...thanks

Vaikis_....yes it would!

You know I forgot mention last night, after doing the side by side analysis, I think the vtc cam gear side of the cam is where the mis-alignment is coming from as opposed to the trigger wheel side. I think someone was drunk over at Kelford when they drilled the holes for the TDC pin.

BTW, 50/50 chance of dynoing today. Erick has a full plate today; might be getting pushed to either tomorrow or next week =/
__________________
1 3 5
2 4 6 Zigen
RIP ADAM WEST
-----------------------
FF SQUAD | FFS TechNet | FFS Videos
katman is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-22-2012, 07:51 AM   #38
98luder
Lifetime Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 387
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

good luck with the tune man

can you get a video for me? i'm interested what this "rough" idle sounds. Heh, i can drive around and ppl will think i have bent valves at the redlight.
__________________
www.98luder.wordpress.com
bought from and can vouch for : rbsjnh, K20 n2o, RatataK26, faratim, Mo_Spec, 2420racing, circuit hero, 6spd_EK, CJM
bought from and didnt' recieve what i paid for and lost money k20z3si4dr
98luder is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-22-2012, 07:52 AM   #39
WESTUP
K20a.org Basic User
 
WESTUP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: So Cal
Posts: 374
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by katman View Post

You know I forgot mention last night doing my eyeballing side by side testing that I think the vtc cam gear side of the cam is where the off alignment lies as opposed to the trigger wheel side of the cam.
Well, if the pulse plate is on spot and the vtc gear is off, it wont run right because it will line up the cam off centerline/tdc. I do think you can correct it through the vtc by making a full new cam angle map from scratch but it will be tedious. It is worth a shot if you know your kpro well, the only catch I see to that is you should put a degree wheel, and see how many degrees the cam is off so you can accurately make this cam angle adjustment on the map, or it will be just a guessing game and wasting more time.
WESTUP is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-22-2012, 08:03 AM   #40
katman
Lifetime Member
 
katman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: SoCAL
Posts: 1,278
Default Re: Kelford 179a Dyno Testing...

hmm...JW, would you like to possibly try what you're suggesting if I lent you the cams? of course with 98luder's consent

I know this sounds ghetto but I could visually see how off the lobes are when I had both cams standing side by side and propped to TDC; by rotating the kelford cam in half a tooth increments, I can see how the lobe angle was beginning to match the TSX cams lobe angle.

btw, I was emailing Kelford the other night (talking to Kevin).
After telling him my timing chain wasn't the culprit in the cam pulse plate being off and sharing these same pics....i haven't gotten a reply back yet. And he WAS pretty quick on his responses to me.
__________________
1 3 5
2 4 6 Zigen
RIP ADAM WEST
-----------------------
FF SQUAD | FFS TechNet | FFS Videos
katman is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
179a, kelford

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the K20A.org .:. The K Series Source . Honda / Acura K20a k24a Engine Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.